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	<title>Comments on: Something&#8217;s Savaging Lee Straw&#8217;s Sheep</title>
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	<description>for Bigfoot, Lake Monsters, Sea Serpents and More</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 18:23:17 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: dogu4</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/straw-sheep/comment-page-1/#comment-31580</link>
		<dc:creator>dogu4</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:19:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/straw-sheep/#comment-31580</guid>
		<description>Well, we haven&#039;t seen much in the way of news on Kushtaqah lately. Maybe we&#039;re due. Thanks again for the insights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, we haven&#8217;t seen much in the way of news on Kushtaqah lately. Maybe we&#8217;re due. Thanks again for the insights.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Loxton</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/straw-sheep/comment-page-1/#comment-31579</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Loxton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 20:15:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/straw-sheep/#comment-31579</guid>
		<description>Actually, yes -- sort of. But that&#039;s a story for another thread...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, yes &#8212; sort of. But that&#8217;s a story for another thread&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: dogu4</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/straw-sheep/comment-page-1/#comment-31578</link>
		<dc:creator>dogu4</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/straw-sheep/#comment-31578</guid>
		<description>Thanks for sharing that Mr Loxton. I&#039;m familiar with the Cassiar and delighted to know that an enlightened understanding to managing the resources is exemplified by this approach. But..uh...no giant primates?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for sharing that Mr Loxton. I&#8217;m familiar with the Cassiar and delighted to know that an enlightened understanding to managing the resources is exemplified by this approach. But..uh&#8230;no giant primates?</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Loxton</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/straw-sheep/comment-page-1/#comment-31577</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Loxton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 05:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/straw-sheep/#comment-31577</guid>
		<description>dogu4, mystery_man: Nothing delights me more than telling stories from my sheep career (which was mostly far in off the Cassiar Highway up along the British Columbia side of the Alaska panhandle, as well as other remote places in the BC interior). But I think you&#039;re right that we shouldn&#039;t take the thread off topic.

I will mention, just in passing, that my career was in &quot;sheep vegetation management&quot; on tree plantations. (Sheep will discriminate between crop-tree conifer seedlings and herbaceous weeds, and preferentially eat the weeds. Handled properly, sheep can therefore be wide-scale weeding alternative in areas where broadcast herbicide treatments are unavailable or undesirable.) Anyway, this meant we worked within the highly-regulated Canadian timber industry, so we were contractually bound to very specific rules for dealing with streams, predators, wild ungulates, disease, and all other aspects of our operation.

I actually do have an anecdote that bears on your  question, mystery_man, about  farmers and their habit of eradicating wild predators. (Short version: my dogs and I were featured in a documentary cosponsored by a French insurance provider and a wildlife conservation organization. The film was meant to persuade French farmers to employ Great Pyrenees guardian dogs to deter predators rather than killing newly reintroduced wolves and bears. The punchline is that these highly effective French dogs are no longer a working breed in France, because the large predators are all gone.)

And perhaps that&#039;s enough of my personal anecdotes for one thread...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dogu4, mystery_man: Nothing delights me more than telling stories from my sheep career (which was mostly far in off the Cassiar Highway up along the British Columbia side of the Alaska panhandle, as well as other remote places in the BC interior). But I think you&#8217;re right that we shouldn&#8217;t take the thread off topic.</p>
<p>I will mention, just in passing, that my career was in &#8220;sheep vegetation management&#8221; on tree plantations. (Sheep will discriminate between crop-tree conifer seedlings and herbaceous weeds, and preferentially eat the weeds. Handled properly, sheep can therefore be wide-scale weeding alternative in areas where broadcast herbicide treatments are unavailable or undesirable.) Anyway, this meant we worked within the highly-regulated Canadian timber industry, so we were contractually bound to very specific rules for dealing with streams, predators, wild ungulates, disease, and all other aspects of our operation.</p>
<p>I actually do have an anecdote that bears on your  question, mystery_man, about  farmers and their habit of eradicating wild predators. (Short version: my dogs and I were featured in a documentary cosponsored by a French insurance provider and a wildlife conservation organization. The film was meant to persuade French farmers to employ Great Pyrenees guardian dogs to deter predators rather than killing newly reintroduced wolves and bears. The punchline is that these highly effective French dogs are no longer a working breed in France, because the large predators are all gone.)</p>
<p>And perhaps that&#8217;s enough of my personal anecdotes for one thread&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: mystery_man</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/straw-sheep/comment-page-1/#comment-31576</link>
		<dc:creator>mystery_man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 15:09:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/straw-sheep/#comment-31576</guid>
		<description>I agree, Dogu4. One of my primary interests outside of cryptozoology is the preservation of ecological systems so I would be interested in the ways in which shepherds can take an approach to maintain sustainable ranges with little impact on the environment. Unfortunately, there are those out there that do not give the ecosystem much heed when pursuing their ranching or herding. One of the prime reasons for the disappearance of the Hokkaido wolf (Canis lupus hattai) from Japan, for example, was the short sighted work of the poisoning campaigns of ranchers. I don&#039;t know how much that would be in keeping with the cryptozoological nature of this thread, but I would like to hear some of Mr. Loxton&#039;s ideas on the matter as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, Dogu4. One of my primary interests outside of cryptozoology is the preservation of ecological systems so I would be interested in the ways in which shepherds can take an approach to maintain sustainable ranges with little impact on the environment. Unfortunately, there are those out there that do not give the ecosystem much heed when pursuing their ranching or herding. One of the prime reasons for the disappearance of the Hokkaido wolf (Canis lupus hattai) from Japan, for example, was the short sighted work of the poisoning campaigns of ranchers. I don&#8217;t know how much that would be in keeping with the cryptozoological nature of this thread, but I would like to hear some of Mr. Loxton&#8217;s ideas on the matter as well.</p>
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		<title>By: dogu4</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/straw-sheep/comment-page-1/#comment-31575</link>
		<dc:creator>dogu4</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/straw-sheep/#comment-31575</guid>
		<description>Well, there are biologists and then there are biologists. Mr Loxton has a particularly enlightened perspective and I applaud him and those other stewards of the land who share his attention to adopting an intergrated view of managing animals on the range. A scientifically based understanding applied towards a holistic approach to that most holistic system, our planets living ecological systems, is a goal that people like Mr Loxton go great distance towards achieving. There is a lot of damage to repair to our rangeland as a result of bad (unscientific and short sighted) policies and practices (many of them based on input from not so good, though very experienced, ranchers and hearders). I really think that having aware land managers with practical experience and both empirical and scientific understanding is key to understanding how we can best know and best interact (manage) those systems on which ultimately we all depend and best know how to interpret the unknown when the previously un-recorded appears and makes itself known.
Got any good stories to share, Mr Loxton?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, there are biologists and then there are biologists. Mr Loxton has a particularly enlightened perspective and I applaud him and those other stewards of the land who share his attention to adopting an intergrated view of managing animals on the range. A scientifically based understanding applied towards a holistic approach to that most holistic system, our planets living ecological systems, is a goal that people like Mr Loxton go great distance towards achieving. There is a lot of damage to repair to our rangeland as a result of bad (unscientific and short sighted) policies and practices (many of them based on input from not so good, though very experienced, ranchers and hearders). I really think that having aware land managers with practical experience and both empirical and scientific understanding is key to understanding how we can best know and best interact (manage) those systems on which ultimately we all depend and best know how to interpret the unknown when the previously un-recorded appears and makes itself known.<br />
Got any good stories to share, Mr Loxton?</p>
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		<title>By: mystery_man</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/straw-sheep/comment-page-1/#comment-31574</link>
		<dc:creator>mystery_man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:16:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/straw-sheep/#comment-31574</guid>
		<description>Daniel Loxton- I can personally kind of see what Loren means. If a shepard can be seen as a biologist of sheep, then they also can be counted on to know when they see something that is truly unusual and does not fit into their experience, which may point to interesting possibilities. I don&#039;t think anyone has to be an expert on a cryptid animal to know that what they saw is something out of the ordinary, merely an expert enough on what they know to realize that what they saw does not fit. They might not be able to tell what excactly it was, but if they say it was an unknown animal that does not fit into their expertise of sheep and known predators, I think we can trust somewhat what they saw wasn&#039;t a common predator of sheep. In that scenario, their expertise is telling us an unknown something was sighted. If they are knowledgable enough to know what common predators ARE, then they are knowledgable enough to know what common predators AREN&#039;T as well. This is an interesting line of inquiry because it is a bit biased in my opinion to trust a sheep expert to make judgements on mundane animals, yet question them if they say it was nothing they had ever seen before. They are the experts right? Just a thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel Loxton- I can personally kind of see what Loren means. If a shepard can be seen as a biologist of sheep, then they also can be counted on to know when they see something that is truly unusual and does not fit into their experience, which may point to interesting possibilities. I don&#8217;t think anyone has to be an expert on a cryptid animal to know that what they saw is something out of the ordinary, merely an expert enough on what they know to realize that what they saw does not fit. They might not be able to tell what excactly it was, but if they say it was an unknown animal that does not fit into their expertise of sheep and known predators, I think we can trust somewhat what they saw wasn&#8217;t a common predator of sheep. In that scenario, their expertise is telling us an unknown something was sighted. If they are knowledgable enough to know what common predators ARE, then they are knowledgable enough to know what common predators AREN&#8217;T as well. This is an interesting line of inquiry because it is a bit biased in my opinion to trust a sheep expert to make judgements on mundane animals, yet question them if they say it was nothing they had ever seen before. They are the experts right? Just a thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Loxton</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/straw-sheep/comment-page-1/#comment-31573</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Loxton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 17:45:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/straw-sheep/#comment-31573</guid>
		<description>Loren writes,

&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;&quot;&gt;Nevertheless, I will remain skeptical of “what” animal(s) might be killing these Maine sheep until I see more evidence (eyewitness accounts, footprint casts, DNA analysis, a body of the varmint) to convince me, one way or the other.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Very proper.

&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;&quot;&gt;I will remind you of your above statement the next time I hear of a report of animal collectors and ranchers, who know their animals, and say they have had an encounter with a creature they cannot explain in terms of the animals they know.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I thought it was likely that someone would make this argument. In my view, it&#039;s probably best not to turn it around in this way.

What I&#039;m recommending is that we give more weight to the considered opinion of field experts, within their field of expertise (and regarding a typical event!), than we give to any other more speculative interpretation. But a rancher who is unable to describe something in terms of what they know is by definition working beyond their expertise.

A shepherd is a kind of field biologist of sheep and their known predators. To date, there are no biologists of bigfoot, alien big cats, chupacabras, or any cryptid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Loren writes,</p>
<blockquote cite=""><p>Nevertheless, I will remain skeptical of “what” animal(s) might be killing these Maine sheep until I see more evidence (eyewitness accounts, footprint casts, DNA analysis, a body of the varmint) to convince me, one way or the other.</p></blockquote>
<p>Very proper.</p>
<blockquote cite=""><p>I will remind you of your above statement the next time I hear of a report of animal collectors and ranchers, who know their animals, and say they have had an encounter with a creature they cannot explain in terms of the animals they know.</p></blockquote>
<p>I thought it was likely that someone would make this argument. In my view, it&#8217;s probably best not to turn it around in this way.</p>
<p>What I&#8217;m recommending is that we give more weight to the considered opinion of field experts, within their field of expertise (and regarding a typical event!), than we give to any other more speculative interpretation. But a rancher who is unable to describe something in terms of what they know is by definition working beyond their expertise.</p>
<p>A shepherd is a kind of field biologist of sheep and their known predators. To date, there are no biologists of bigfoot, alien big cats, chupacabras, or any cryptid.</p>
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		<title>By: sschaper</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/straw-sheep/comment-page-1/#comment-31572</link>
		<dc:creator>sschaper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 17:09:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/straw-sheep/#comment-31572</guid>
		<description>I know that dogs can do this. Do wolverines do this?

Here in South-east Minnesota, a wolverine was video taped by security cameras checking out the new cars at a dealership in Zumbrota, about 25 miles north of here, a couple of years ago.  A couple hours west of here, near Mankato, a female cougar has been known to have lived and had litters for several years now. The coyotes are back, and can be heard singing at night, east of town. An hour and a half south of Mankato, my Dad saw &quot;a coyote the size of a Scots collie&quot; at the end of the hayfield, and spare male yearling wolves have been known to travel down from the packs in the BWCA. Meanwhile a black bear and cub are known to be living in the southern part of town in the woods along the streams in that area, and further south another black bear is known to be hanging around.

But when there are deer kills, the local county conservation officer blames dogs, and angrily insists that farmers should never have more than one dog - even though dogs are not house pets, need a lot of room to run, and need company - our collies would hang out with the horses and cats, as we only had one at a time.

Now, couldn&#039;t a wolverine, or a cougar, or even a bear, be responsible for these kills?
We are talking about one or two, not and again, not like a dog&#039;s running wild around sheep. I&#039;m suspecting a wolverine, simply due to Jack London tales, but that isn&#039;t the same as having an expert&#039;s opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know that dogs can do this. Do wolverines do this?</p>
<p>Here in South-east Minnesota, a wolverine was video taped by security cameras checking out the new cars at a dealership in Zumbrota, about 25 miles north of here, a couple of years ago.  A couple hours west of here, near Mankato, a female cougar has been known to have lived and had litters for several years now. The coyotes are back, and can be heard singing at night, east of town. An hour and a half south of Mankato, my Dad saw &#8220;a coyote the size of a Scots collie&#8221; at the end of the hayfield, and spare male yearling wolves have been known to travel down from the packs in the BWCA. Meanwhile a black bear and cub are known to be living in the southern part of town in the woods along the streams in that area, and further south another black bear is known to be hanging around.</p>
<p>But when there are deer kills, the local county conservation officer blames dogs, and angrily insists that farmers should never have more than one dog &#8211; even though dogs are not house pets, need a lot of room to run, and need company &#8211; our collies would hang out with the horses and cats, as we only had one at a time.</p>
<p>Now, couldn&#8217;t a wolverine, or a cougar, or even a bear, be responsible for these kills?<br />
We are talking about one or two, not and again, not like a dog&#8217;s running wild around sheep. I&#8217;m suspecting a wolverine, simply due to Jack London tales, but that isn&#8217;t the same as having an expert&#8217;s opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Loren Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/straw-sheep/comment-page-1/#comment-31571</link>
		<dc:creator>Loren Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 11:45:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/straw-sheep/#comment-31571</guid>
		<description>Daniel, well stated and compelling, of course.

Nevertheless, I will remain skeptical of &quot;what&quot; animal(s) might be killing these Maine sheep until I see more evidence (eyewitness accounts, footprint casts, DNA analysis, a body of the varmint) to convince me, one way or the other.  (Sound familiar?)

I will remind you of your above statement the next time I hear of a report of animal collectors and ranchers, who know their animals, and say they have had an encounter with a creature they cannot explain in terms of the animals they know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel, well stated and compelling, of course.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, I will remain skeptical of &#8220;what&#8221; animal(s) might be killing these Maine sheep until I see more evidence (eyewitness accounts, footprint casts, DNA analysis, a body of the varmint) to convince me, one way or the other.  (Sound familiar?)</p>
<p>I will remind you of your above statement the next time I hear of a report of animal collectors and ranchers, who know their animals, and say they have had an encounter with a creature they cannot explain in terms of the animals they know.</p>
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