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	<title>Comments on: Penn &#038; Teller Swear By Cryptozoology</title>
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	<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/p-t-cz-critique/</link>
	<description>for Bigfoot, Loch Ness, and More</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:37:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Loren Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/p-t-cz-critique/#comment-2403</link>
		<dc:creator>Loren Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 May 2006 19:01:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/penn-teller-swear-by-cryptozoology/#comment-2403</guid>
		<description>Yes, just like it was bad luck to not have a verified mountain gorilla or live giant panda available for 60-70 years.

Please read some good books on these topics, as all your cryptozoological questions will be answered.

End of the discussion because this has gotten way off the Penn &#38; Teller topic, and into trying to make a skeptic happy.  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, just like it was bad luck to not have a verified mountain gorilla or live giant panda available for 60-70 years.</p>
<p>Please read some good books on these topics, as all your cryptozoological questions will be answered.</p>
<p>End of the discussion because this has gotten way off the Penn &amp; Teller topic, and into trying to make a skeptic happy.  <img src='http://www.cryptomundo.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: BugsBunny</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/p-t-cz-critique/#comment-2402</link>
		<dc:creator>BugsBunny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 May 2006 18:55:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/penn-teller-swear-by-cryptozoology/#comment-2402</guid>
		<description>My argument isn't that there are NO fish in the lake.  My argument is that there would not be ENOUGH fish in the lake to sustain a breeding population of "monsters."  An animal the size Nessie is alleged to be -- would nead an enormous amount of food to survive -- and that's just one.  It is your suposition that there are a number of "monsters."

That being said -- you still haven't provided an answer for why there are not skeletal remains of Bigfoot.  You suggested that they are eaten.  I would contend that it's possible for some animal bones to be eaten by wildlife -- but that some would remain -- as is the case with so many other animals we have relics of.  Again, a visit to any museum that specilizes in this type of exhibit, will verify this.  Is it your contention that it's just been a series of bad luck and awful coincidences that have resulted in ALL the Bigfoot remains from across the globe having been eaten by wildlife?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My argument isn&#8217;t that there are NO fish in the lake.  My argument is that there would not be ENOUGH fish in the lake to sustain a breeding population of &#8220;monsters.&#8221;  An animal the size Nessie is alleged to be &#8212; would nead an enormous amount of food to survive &#8212; and that&#8217;s just one.  It is your suposition that there are a number of &#8220;monsters.&#8221;</p>
<p>That being said &#8212; you still haven&#8217;t provided an answer for why there are not skeletal remains of Bigfoot.  You suggested that they are eaten.  I would contend that it&#8217;s possible for some animal bones to be eaten by wildlife &#8212; but that some would remain &#8212; as is the case with so many other animals we have relics of.  Again, a visit to any museum that specilizes in this type of exhibit, will verify this.  Is it your contention that it&#8217;s just been a series of bad luck and awful coincidences that have resulted in ALL the Bigfoot remains from across the globe having been eaten by wildlife?</p>
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		<title>By: Loren Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/p-t-cz-critique/#comment-2401</link>
		<dc:creator>Loren Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 May 2006 08:57:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/penn-teller-swear-by-cryptozoology/#comment-2401</guid>
		<description>Bugs Bunny...I answered above, quickly and perhaps with too much humor.  What, a Penn &#38; Teller fan that doesn't like funny answers?  What is the world coming to?

But, okay, to be clear, (I can't believe I am going to say this...), for "Bugs Bunny," as Bugs seem to be basing his total thoughts on the food supply with the common misconception that "there are no fish in the lake," as expressed by the one person who was quoted for P &#38; T and the one boat driver who hasn't seen Nessie.  You are always going to find people who "haven't" seen cryptids.  Or use that old myth about no fish in the Loch.  But, be logical, why is there a small fishing industry there?  It is because fish pass &lt;em&gt;through&lt;/em&gt; Loch Ness.

As to the food supply, the Loch is filled with eels and it has large populations of fish traveling &lt;em&gt;through&lt;/em&gt; it.  Also, if the Ness animals can transport to and from the ocean, as I think the evidence demonstrates, their food sources would never have to just be in the loch.

But, once again, why do the skeptics think there is a fishing industry and lifestyle there?  Loch Ness is very rich in fish life.  Brown trout, pike and arctic char live there amongst the thousands of eels.   Of the greatest interest to local anglers are the salmon and sea trout which run from the North Sea, up the river Ness, jump the weir and run through the Loch to spawn in the rivers and burns, which feed it.  The salmon fishing season historically started on January 15th and ended on October 15th, at Loch Ness.  They aren't fishing for nothing, of course.  Supplying salmon has been a source of good income for Loch Ness folks for centuries.  The local eating establishments often would charge very high prices for the first salmon caught every season.

The most efficient method for catching salmon is trolling.  Think about what that tells us about the fish that live there, the obvious food source for any large cryptids.  Salmon are seldom taken out in the deep water of the Loch. The largest salmon caught are generally in the 40 pound range, from near the surface.  Quite large sea-trout are often taken while trolling for salmon, as well.  Both for salmon and trout fishing in Loch Ness the water needs to be rough.

Good fish are seldom caught in calm waters.  Good Monster hunting may be best in the same kind of waters, but good Loch Ness Monsters sightings have traditionally been limited to times of calmer waters.  And therein lies the paradox, dear Watson.  Humans are on the Loch when the waters are calm, but the Monsters may be there more often when the waters are otherwise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bugs Bunny&#8230;I answered above, quickly and perhaps with too much humor.  What, a Penn &amp; Teller fan that doesn&#8217;t like funny answers?  What is the world coming to?</p>
<p>But, okay, to be clear, (I can&#8217;t believe I am going to say this&#8230;), for &#8220;Bugs Bunny,&#8221; as Bugs seem to be basing his total thoughts on the food supply with the common misconception that &#8220;there are no fish in the lake,&#8221; as expressed by the one person who was quoted for P &amp; T and the one boat driver who hasn&#8217;t seen Nessie.  You are always going to find people who &#8220;haven&#8217;t&#8221; seen cryptids.  Or use that old myth about no fish in the Loch.  But, be logical, why is there a small fishing industry there?  It is because fish pass <em>through</em> Loch Ness.</p>
<p>As to the food supply, the Loch is filled with eels and it has large populations of fish traveling <em>through</em> it.  Also, if the Ness animals can transport to and from the ocean, as I think the evidence demonstrates, their food sources would never have to just be in the loch.</p>
<p>But, once again, why do the skeptics think there is a fishing industry and lifestyle there?  Loch Ness is very rich in fish life.  Brown trout, pike and arctic char live there amongst the thousands of eels.   Of the greatest interest to local anglers are the salmon and sea trout which run from the North Sea, up the river Ness, jump the weir and run through the Loch to spawn in the rivers and burns, which feed it.  The salmon fishing season historically started on January 15th and ended on October 15th, at Loch Ness.  They aren&#8217;t fishing for nothing, of course.  Supplying salmon has been a source of good income for Loch Ness folks for centuries.  The local eating establishments often would charge very high prices for the first salmon caught every season.</p>
<p>The most efficient method for catching salmon is trolling.  Think about what that tells us about the fish that live there, the obvious food source for any large cryptids.  Salmon are seldom taken out in the deep water of the Loch. The largest salmon caught are generally in the 40 pound range, from near the surface.  Quite large sea-trout are often taken while trolling for salmon, as well.  Both for salmon and trout fishing in Loch Ness the water needs to be rough.</p>
<p>Good fish are seldom caught in calm waters.  Good Monster hunting may be best in the same kind of waters, but good Loch Ness Monsters sightings have traditionally been limited to times of calmer waters.  And therein lies the paradox, dear Watson.  Humans are on the Loch when the waters are calm, but the Monsters may be there more often when the waters are otherwise.</p>
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		<title>By: BugsBunny</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/p-t-cz-critique/#comment-2400</link>
		<dc:creator>BugsBunny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 May 2006 02:52:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/penn-teller-swear-by-cryptozoology/#comment-2400</guid>
		<description>Loren -- The boat captain from the P&#38;T show says that he's been leading tours on the lake for 18 years -- and in all that time, he's never seen anything he couldn't explain.  I'd be interested in hearing your side of this -- the scientist makes a convincing case that there isn't enough food in the lake to feed a breeding stock of "monsters."  What do you say to refute this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Loren &#8212; The boat captain from the P&amp;T show says that he&#8217;s been leading tours on the lake for 18 years &#8212; and in all that time, he&#8217;s never seen anything he couldn&#8217;t explain.  I&#8217;d be interested in hearing your side of this &#8212; the scientist makes a convincing case that there isn&#8217;t enough food in the lake to feed a breeding stock of &#8220;monsters.&#8221;  What do you say to refute this?</p>
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		<title>By: Loren Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/p-t-cz-critique/#comment-2399</link>
		<dc:creator>Loren Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Apr 2006 18:07:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/penn-teller-swear-by-cryptozoology/#comment-2399</guid>
		<description>The play-dough scientist's findings of no food in Loch Ness is what is humorous.  Tell that to the people who have fished the lake for most of their lives.  But he did look like he was having fun with the modeling clay, and it made for one of those memorable moments in the "skeptics-on-television" hall of shame.

:-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The play-dough scientist&#8217;s findings of no food in Loch Ness is what is humorous.  Tell that to the people who have fished the lake for most of their lives.  But he did look like he was having fun with the modeling clay, and it made for one of those memorable moments in the &#8220;skeptics-on-television&#8221; hall of shame.<br />
 <img src='http://www.cryptomundo.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: BugsBunny</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/p-t-cz-critique/#comment-2398</link>
		<dc:creator>BugsBunny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Apr 2006 18:02:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/penn-teller-swear-by-cryptozoology/#comment-2398</guid>
		<description>First --let me say, thanks for responding.  However, your idea that there is a breeding population of Loch ness Monsters is what's laughable.  The scientist used by P&#38;T thoroughly debunked that idea.  There isn't enough food in the lake to feed a breeding population of "monsters." And you're notion that the Bigfoot remains have all been eaten by animals, is also laughable.  The remains of bears and cougars have been found.  They've been studied by science.  You can see their remains at nearly any Museum that features animal bones. What you won't find in those museums is a single skeleton or bone from one of your so called unknown creatures.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First &#8211;let me say, thanks for responding.  However, your idea that there is a breeding population of Loch ness Monsters is what&#8217;s laughable.  The scientist used by P&amp;T thoroughly debunked that idea.  There isn&#8217;t enough food in the lake to feed a breeding population of &#8220;monsters.&#8221; And you&#8217;re notion that the Bigfoot remains have all been eaten by animals, is also laughable.  The remains of bears and cougars have been found.  They&#8217;ve been studied by science.  You can see their remains at nearly any Museum that features animal bones. What you won&#8217;t find in those museums is a single skeleton or bone from one of your so called unknown creatures.</p>
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		<title>By: Loren Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/p-t-cz-critique/#comment-2397</link>
		<dc:creator>Loren Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Apr 2006 23:45:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/penn-teller-swear-by-cryptozoology/#comment-2397</guid>
		<description>BugsBunny writes:  "Why haven't remains of deceased Bigfoot ever been discovered? Are their several Loch Ness Monsters or is the single "monster" in the lake, several hundred/thousand years old? How come no Loch Ness Monster remains have ever been discovered (assuming there have been many)? Why isnt‚ there a single piece of real scientific evidence ever found to suggest the existance of Bigfoot? A hair? A bone? Some DNA? Why isn't there the sort of gigantism you associate with either Bigfoot or Loch Ness Monster exhibited among any other life form?"

Of course, these questions appear to demonstrate a level of defensiveness for Penn &#38; Teller without looking at the basic demeaning techniques of personal attacks used by P &#038; T that was the foundation of the critical view above.

Nevertheless, I'm not afraid to answer questions...even if they may be more revealing of the questioner than anything else...

Why deceased Bigfoot are not found in the woods have much to do with the same reasons seasoned woodspeople do not find dead bears or cougars in the woods, and a discussion of all of those reasons are contained in my 2003 &lt;em&gt;Bigfoot!&lt;/em&gt; book.   Hardwood forests, porcupines, other animals eating the remains, and the probable intelligence of the bipedal primates are contributing factors.

Asking the question about a thousands-of-years-old single Nessie is laughable, and something that is answered in elementary discussions on the Loch Ness Monsters - as there are several, they are a breeding population, and so forth.  There is not "one" land-locked "monster."  Such a notion has more to do with skeptical wishful thinking than reality.

As to DNA, hair, and other physical evidence for the "existance" (sic) of Bigfoot, yes, of course, there are several forms of physical evidence pointing to the existence of these animals.  However, as most books on Sasquatch and other cryptids readily note, without the type specimen, most hair samples, for example, found do not match known animals, and are usually labeled "near human" or "unknown primate."  Until Bigfoot is verified and confirmed, these samples will not have anything to match.

Gigantism? What is Bugs Bunny talking about?  I don't know any serious cryptozoologists that regularly trot out "gigantism" to "explain" Nessie and Bigfoot?  Wow.  Are other "life forms," animals large like Bigfoot?  Of course, they are.  Certainly Pleistocene megafaunal survivors are well-known, and anyone is welcome to come visit my state to view an example out in the woods here...the moose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BugsBunny writes:  &#8220;Why haven&#8217;t remains of deceased Bigfoot ever been discovered? Are their several Loch Ness Monsters or is the single &#8220;monster&#8221; in the lake, several hundred/thousand years old? How come no Loch Ness Monster remains have ever been discovered (assuming there have been many)? Why isnt‚ there a single piece of real scientific evidence ever found to suggest the existance of Bigfoot? A hair? A bone? Some DNA? Why isn&#8217;t there the sort of gigantism you associate with either Bigfoot or Loch Ness Monster exhibited among any other life form?&#8221;</p>
<p>Of course, these questions appear to demonstrate a level of defensiveness for Penn &amp; Teller without looking at the basic demeaning techniques of personal attacks used by P &#038; T that was the foundation of the critical view above.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, I&#8217;m not afraid to answer questions&#8230;even if they may be more revealing of the questioner than anything else&#8230;</p>
<p>Why deceased Bigfoot are not found in the woods have much to do with the same reasons seasoned woodspeople do not find dead bears or cougars in the woods, and a discussion of all of those reasons are contained in my 2003 <em>Bigfoot!</em> book.   Hardwood forests, porcupines, other animals eating the remains, and the probable intelligence of the bipedal primates are contributing factors.</p>
<p>Asking the question about a thousands-of-years-old single Nessie is laughable, and something that is answered in elementary discussions on the Loch Ness Monsters - as there are several, they are a breeding population, and so forth.  There is not &#8220;one&#8221; land-locked &#8220;monster.&#8221;  Such a notion has more to do with skeptical wishful thinking than reality.</p>
<p>As to DNA, hair, and other physical evidence for the &#8220;existance&#8221; (sic) of Bigfoot, yes, of course, there are several forms of physical evidence pointing to the existence of these animals.  However, as most books on Sasquatch and other cryptids readily note, without the type specimen, most hair samples, for example, found do not match known animals, and are usually labeled &#8220;near human&#8221; or &#8220;unknown primate.&#8221;  Until Bigfoot is verified and confirmed, these samples will not have anything to match.</p>
<p>Gigantism? What is Bugs Bunny talking about?  I don&#8217;t know any serious cryptozoologists that regularly trot out &#8220;gigantism&#8221; to &#8220;explain&#8221; Nessie and Bigfoot?  Wow.  Are other &#8220;life forms,&#8221; animals large like Bigfoot?  Of course, they are.  Certainly Pleistocene megafaunal survivors are well-known, and anyone is welcome to come visit my state to view an example out in the woods here&#8230;the moose.</p>
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		<title>By: BugsBunny</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/p-t-cz-critique/#comment-2396</link>
		<dc:creator>BugsBunny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Apr 2006 22:43:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/penn-teller-swear-by-cryptozoology/#comment-2396</guid>
		<description>I just stumbled on your site -- and I also saw the Penn &#38; Teller show on Cryptozoology.  And I must say -- they made a pretty convincing case that mysterious creatures don't exist.  And best I can tell -- your objection with the program is that it used coarse language, made jokes and pretty much dismissed your "life's work."  However -- in all of your ranting over the mistreatment given to your chosen field -- what you have NOT done, is refuted one single piece of evidence and science put forth by the experts.  If you could why don't you answer some of the following quesitons:  Why haven't remains of deceased Bigfoots ever been discovered? Are their several "Loch Ness Monsters" or is the single "monster" in the lake, several hundred/thousand years old?  How come no Loch Ness Monster remains have ever been discovered (assuming there have been many)?  Why isnt' there a single piece of real scientific evidence ever found to suggest the existance of Bigfoot?  A hair? A bone? Some DNA?  Why isn't there the sort of gigantism you associate with either Bigfoot or Loch Ness Monster exhibited among any other life form?  Once you have real, concrete answers to some of the above questions... then maybe people will begin to take your studies more seriously.  However -- I doubt you can or will provide them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just stumbled on your site &#8212; and I also saw the Penn &amp; Teller show on Cryptozoology.  And I must say &#8212; they made a pretty convincing case that mysterious creatures don&#8217;t exist.  And best I can tell &#8212; your objection with the program is that it used coarse language, made jokes and pretty much dismissed your &#8220;life&#8217;s work.&#8221;  However &#8212; in all of your ranting over the mistreatment given to your chosen field &#8212; what you have NOT done, is refuted one single piece of evidence and science put forth by the experts.  If you could why don&#8217;t you answer some of the following quesitons:  Why haven&#8217;t remains of deceased Bigfoots ever been discovered? Are their several &#8220;Loch Ness Monsters&#8221; or is the single &#8220;monster&#8221; in the lake, several hundred/thousand years old?  How come no Loch Ness Monster remains have ever been discovered (assuming there have been many)?  Why isnt&#8217; there a single piece of real scientific evidence ever found to suggest the existance of Bigfoot?  A hair? A bone? Some DNA?  Why isn&#8217;t there the sort of gigantism you associate with either Bigfoot or Loch Ness Monster exhibited among any other life form?  Once you have real, concrete answers to some of the above questions&#8230; then maybe people will begin to take your studies more seriously.  However &#8212; I doubt you can or will provide them.</p>
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		<title>By: greatanarch</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/p-t-cz-critique/#comment-2395</link>
		<dc:creator>greatanarch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Apr 2006 19:32:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/penn-teller-swear-by-cryptozoology/#comment-2395</guid>
		<description>I don't think Jon and Richard would claim to achieve genius (in my view, doing P &#38; T casts doubt even on ordinary good sense), but they have a number of the essential scientific qualities: most importantly, a willingness to go out and look for the evidence in remote and uncomfortable places.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think Jon and Richard would claim to achieve genius (in my view, doing P &amp; T casts doubt even on ordinary good sense), but they have a number of the essential scientific qualities: most importantly, a willingness to go out and look for the evidence in remote and uncomfortable places.</p>
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		<title>By: jayman</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/p-t-cz-critique/#comment-2394</link>
		<dc:creator>jayman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:03:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/penn-teller-swear-by-cryptozoology/#comment-2394</guid>
		<description>P&#38;T are debunkers, not skeptics, and ridicule is the main tool in the debunker's kit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P&amp;T are debunkers, not skeptics, and ridicule is the main tool in the debunker&#8217;s kit.</p>
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