Sumatra is not an expensive place to operate. After all, how much does it cost to sit in a home-made shelter on a mountainside, eating locally-bought rice and noodles every day? Local guides and porters do not cost much either, neither does transport or hotels. As for equipment, you can spend as much or as little as you want. Plaster of Paris for casting is cheap, third-generation night vision equipment is expensive, GPS and trail cameras somewhere in-between. The biggest cost is always the air fare.

Hope all this helps.

Hello again. I didn’t know you had 25 days of vacation in Great Britain (?). That would be a Godsend here, along with some aspects of the free healthcare system. Ten days does sound correct, not counting weekends that fall within vacation time.

At first it was hard for me to wrap my brain around how little funding the Orang Pendek Project had: I thought you had a larger number of individuals making the trek and that supplies like the paste used to fill in tracks, GPS (?), food, medicine, not to mention the pay of local guides, would be very expensive. Then again, come to think of it, supplies might come cheaper in Indonesia than the western world.

Though I favor this discussion outside of what I’ve had with Chief, I have to ask you about something he keeps insisting on: Its as if he believes that anyone can up and leave their place of employment, without excuse of vacation time, for three weeks or so on, and not get fired or sacked for doing so. Forgive my ignorance, but in your country, is this allowed? I understand it is far, far harder to fire someone in France than in America, But I didn’t know about Britain, Australia, New Zealand, etc. Is it the same in your country as it is in France? If so, then I can begin to understand what he was trying to convey. If one had the 25 days together in one part of the year, not counting weekends, then that too me sounds far more likely than someone simply leaving for such an endeavor despite not having Vacation time allowed at the time as a reason not to fear being sacked.

Now, as also for this other discussion here: please do not take personal anything I jib jab back and forth with Chief. Sorry if anything I wrote was hurtful to Adam Davies and his team. I’m simply caught up in a locking horns mechanism for now and with rancid remarks back and forth it is hard to level responses without others getting burned in the crossfire. I will do better to be more civil in these discussions with him, but I feel as if he is debating just to debate, and not to discuss.

Thank you for your civil responses

“I was obviously talking about extreme fringe Cryptids, like Hominids.”

Onzas include the black panther phenomena, which is on the extreme edge. So was Giant Squid before it was proven to exist, and both Lowland and Mountain Gorillas. Komodo Dragons were on the fringe until they were discovered (before then they were known from obscure tales of unnamed pilots who went there, one of which described them as “Dragons”. And if the Saola is indeed a partial inspiration for Asian Unicrons, then how fringe can you get?

“100% irrevelant”

See Flame821′s latest post here for a rebuttal.

“LOl. This example should never be used! The animals were seen and dead within a couple of hours of being found”

Um, hate to burst your bubble, but no: not only had natives lived with the creature for millennia without the western world’s knowledge, one was indeed seen and discovered by a westerner in 1898: in that discovery, bones were found (something that has yet to occur in Bigfoot research), but the man did not bring this evidence forwards due to circumstances. It was only later when the animals were discovered by being shot.

“Yep. dead in the water but nice try.”

Only in thy imagination. Read that post again and maybe I will get a more credible response.

“Pure Garbage.”

“Oh, boss? Hey, its Victor from the mail department. Yes, I came to say that, even though It is not time for my vacation and I have work here to do, I’m going to Indonesia to find a ape species you have never heard about and have myself an adventure. Is that okay?”

Only in Fantasy land would somebody get off light doing this.

“It means nothing to me obviously”

Well it seems obvious to us that you are making a big hill of beans about people going off and doing their own Indonesian ape hunts, and saying we don’t have the right to judge your results because we don’t do it. If it “obviousl doesn’t mean nothing to you, quit having yourself a tizzy about it.

“Yet? You never asked me before…”

Um, reread my posts. I asked you twice.

“Have you been on an expedition, and if so, can you prove it?”
“Have you gone?”
(these were on the post where I asked you the first time
“And you have yet to answer whether you have gone on an expedition yourself” (take that as number 3 if you will, on the second post where I asked you. Sometimes when a sentence is put in that way, it denotes a question in and of itself, despite not having the symbol “?” at the end).

“I have been on several expeditions.”

Have you? Crypto-zoological expeditions? If so, then you have the same success rate with primary evidence that I have just sitting here trying to teach you something: nada. All that effort, and in the end you are just like me and all those millions whom you have stuck up your nose to who cannot make such a trek: you have zero primar evidence. Just a bunch of secondary evidence, which by the way there is far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far more of for Sasquatch than Orang Pendek. Whose the believer now?

“Attacking my Keyboard?”

Writing nasty counterattacks online, i.e. attacking your keyboard.
“and try not to be rude.”

Pot calling the Kettle black. You don’t want nothing, don’t start nothing. Nobody got riffled until you started making a big fuss over primary evidence and your expedition.

“Back to the real world”

LOL, I just can’t. Waaaay too easy.

You know, Greatanarch/Chris Clark was very nice in his response to me, and I learned a heck of a lot more from him and his decent ways. Learn those ways

I am going to try and make this point one more time: this expedition was the result of ordinary people making careful use of their own time and money. Many of us have wives/partners/children/mortgages. Because Adam sometimes joins expeditions organised by TV companies there is an impression that he is a professional explorer. In fact he has a perfectly conventional job quite unrelated to cryptozoology, as do all the rest of us with the single exception of Richard Freeman, who supports himself with talks, books and articles on various Fortean subjects including cryptozoology. There was no outside money or support whatsoever, except from Professor Bryan Sykes who contributed a collection kit for returning possible DNA samples. To the extent that our expeditions are well organised and researched it is because we organise and research them ourselves. When Richard, myself and one other person first went to Sumatra in 2003 (independently of Adam) our only asset was Debbie Martyr, who recommended a local guide to us (a good local contact is the most important preparation you can make). After that we learned as we went along.

The only difference that I recognise between ourselves and the average US citizen is that we get more vacation time: I have 25 days per year, while I hear that some of you have to make do with 10.

Hapa:
- Yes, tigers and sun bears are a genuine problem. We find tiger pug marks in the area almost every expedition, and it can be slightly alarming leaving camp in the middle of the night!
- I have no personal problem tranquilising an animal, but suitable equipment is not easy to obtain or transport, and we would surely need permission from the Indonesian authorities to do anything like this in a national park.
-There is a large unknown local cat species called the cigau, that we heard about on our first expedition. It is quite different from the tiger, and seems to be associated with streams and rivers. There is an account of it carrying off a man who had violated one of the local taboos.

quote “those hunters were not all hunting for Sasquatch”

100% irrelvant..as again you would be aware it was..or..playing the game..hunters with large calibre guns hunting for anything have not shot one..no slipping from that one is there..

WHY do so many people assume that anyone with a large caliber gun is just going to shoot willy nilly at something they can’t identify? Any decent hunter has been trained to not pull the trigger if you don’t know what is in your sights. It could be a human. It could be an animal that is out of season (with accompanying fines), it could be someone’s pet. MOST hunters are courteous and safety conscious.

Do people think that an animal that survives by hiding itself is suddenly going to walk, upright at full height, into a clearing when the scent of a human is around? How many Sasquatch sightings consist of, “I was just sitting there and this big hairy guy walked out in front of me, struck a pose, waved at me and walked off again.” Or do you just expect anyone who carries a gun to be some sort of trigger happy dufus who doesn’t give a fig about who or what he kills?

I was obviously talking about extreme fringe cryptids like hominids etc..(remember..we are on the page for orang pendak) as you would have been more than aware..
But thanks for the lesson in well known discoveries..which no one finds contentious

quote “those hunters were not all hunting for Sasquatch”

100% irrelvant..as again you would be aware it was..or..playing the game..hunters with large calibre guns hunting for anything have not shot one..no slipping from that one is there..

quote”Despite 55 years of hunts launched by major institutions like Universities with the purpose of getting more Gorillas in Africa, and
intensive European imperial, missionary, and worker presence in the region, not one westerner had ever brought one to the public until 1902.”

LOl
This example should never be used !!!
The animals were seen and dead within a couple of hours of being found..
Please dont use this one again..most people who read anything about cryptids never use this..
Its just a no brainer to be shot down..

quote”Once again, see above”

Yep..dead in the water but nice try

quote”Chris Clarke’s response is for people who either don’t have commitments (like jobs) or are on vacation time and can make the effort and have no priorities during vacations that would keep people from going ”

Pure garbage..I did not notice Clarke mentioning he had no commitments..he is just a working joe like all of us.
But excuses are easy ..
Your projecting your own ideas/paranoia etc onto the lifestyles of others..

quote”I have already written that I plan to do so in the future. And whether I do so in the future or not, what’s it to you?”

It means nothing to me obviously..why would it.?
It was just a suggestion.

quote” You obvious don’t believe in this kind of stuff, or at least some of it,”

You never asked me..so how would you know..in actual fact..I do believe in many aspects of it.

quote”and you have yet to answer whether yu have gone on an expedition yourself.”

yet?..you never asked before so how did an unasked question..become “yet to answer”…
I have gone overseas..several times on expeditions..
See more below..which will not make you happy..

quote”If you are so high and mighty, then you should have gone on one yourself, overseas, without a problem. If you have not, then quit attacking your keyboard about it. ”

“attacking my keyboard”?…I have no idea what that mangled metaphor is meant to mean..:)
“high and mighty”..once again..total confusion with what you are trying to say..
Anyway…I Just came back from that Sumatra trip.:)
My name is Mike Williams..look up the trip list of members..I am dead easy to find on the net..shoot me a polite email and I will respond..
Or just keep pretending that no one is real and your too busy to find me..:)
That should work here..
In future..so you dont end up looking so foolish again….just ask normal questions..dont make assumptions about others and try not to be rude…

quote”hypocrisy is not a virtue”

HUH..?..

Quote”Did he? Would you stake your life on it that Chris Clarke is indeed the person who wrote that post? Stake ”

Yes..and please stop the mad little hole you are digging..it is just..ridiculous..
I just used my real name..so did clarke..sorry..

quote”As for Chris Clarke: I do not doubt that who I posted too on here is indeed Chris Clarke,”

Great..back to the real world and nullifies your previous post 100% ..
Great chatting with ya

Mike W

When I wrote about Gorillas not being discovered till 1902, I meant Mountain Gorillas, which were not proven to be anything more than mythical creatures until one was shot in 1902. Numerous expeditions to find more Gorillas had not met success for 55 years, and other westerners had been in the area for Missionary and other works without discovering a Mountain Gorilla, until that fateful day in 1902. A few years earlier, a man claimed to have shot one, but he couldn’t get the body out t show the world. Sounds similar to circumstances surrounding a peculiar North American Ape in myth and legend…

“that just leaves secondary evidence…there is nothing else.”

?

Crypt-zoology is not a field that produces no primary evidence. Indeed new species are discovered all the time by mainstream sientists, who are technically doing Crypto-zoology without mostly realizing it (Crypto-zoology=search for unknown animals=hence when one finds a new species, whether they are trying to or not, they are committing Crypto-zoological work).

There has been a treasure trove of new species recently discovered, one of which, the Saola, weighs as much as a big Orangutan (200 lbs) and might be the inspiration for Asian Unicorn Myths. Then there is the Luzon Lizard, a 6 feet 6 inch giant tree lizard, which was known only in myth and legend until discovered by science. Loren Coleman wrote a lot about that breakthrough on Cryptomundo. And yet it was discovered not by secondary evidence, by by a specimen (I believe they caught the creature). Then there is the giant North American Crawfish (a peculiar find in its own right. As far as I know it was not even known to the Native Americans before its discovery), Giant Antarctic Starfish, Megamouth Shark, The Giant Muntjac, Minature Muntjac (24 lbs, 30 inches high) Irimote Wildcat, Bosavi Giant wooly rat (32 inches long, 3.5 lbs), Barbados Thread snake (only 4.1 inches long), and we haven’t mentioned the classics (Gian Squid, Giant Panda, Lesser or Red Panda, Gorillas, Kourpey, Mountain Nyala, etc)

Then there are other crypto-discoveries that, though not of new species, are of instead previously thought extinct species, subspecies, or even deformities within species (King Cheetahs, Bondo or Bili Giant Chimps (about 300 lbs), Mountain Gorillas, New Zealand Moose (a oddity, in that DNA and hair samples were all that was needed to convince skeptics that the animal still lives in Southern New Zealand, Woodland Bison (Bison bison athabasca), Riwoche Horses (a minature breed, ponysized, that bears a striking resemblance to Cro-Magnon cave paintings of wild horses in Europe), Onza (turned out to be a population of Cougars with unusual physical characteristics, though the black ones might in and of themselves be a part of the Black Cat phenomena), Chupacabras (which were canines, some coydogs (part coyote part dogs) and other hybrids as well as pure wild or domestic species that had been rendered deformed by severe cases of mange, though these would not be the originators of the original Puerto Rican mythos)

“Yes, we will pretend that the millions upon millions of the hunter man hours in the last 100 years in the US and Canada…without one body…Is just due to…a lack of time.”

1, those hunters were not all hunting for Sasquatch (I’ve hunted on several occasions, not for Bigfoot but for deer, squirrels, birds, etc, and the Millions (the Rock looking around in silence) have likewise hunted more for known game than unknown. Even when they encountered them, most didn’t shoot because they flt it might be human, or they missed or didn’t get a kill shot. And then hunters are also hesitant to fire because it could be a man in a suit. Factor in that many who hunt for Bigfoot do not hunt to kill, capture or tranquilize, but merely to get another useless photograph or the like, and then you have a recipe for not getting what you are looking for.

Despite 55 years of hunts launched by major institutions like Universities with the purpose of getting more Gorillas in Africa, and intensive European imperial, missionary, and worker presence in the region, not one westerner had ever brought one to the public until 1902. The creature was known in legend as a hairy mountain monster since the 1860′s, and yet was ridiculed (after all, over 50 years, millions and millions of hunter’s hours, and not one body…) until it was proven, not by photoraph or tracks, but by a corpse.Likewise, though the Giant Panda was discovered in the 1869, a new specimen was not collected until 1929, after 12 major expeditions went to the remote region where the large animal existed and had come up short (Giant Pandas can reach over 300 lbs and lived in a restricted range), and these people both knew what they were looking for and were committed to taking a body.

Jeff Meldrum responds as well to this critique, by saying that not that many major Universities and other institutions have given any effort to find Sasquatch, and here I am being quite liberal in my calculations. Often his responses to this, that why have so man expeditions going after Sasquatch come up short, start off by saying “Whom?”, meaning that out of all these expeditions, only a scant few, if any had major backing from a University, or had major academics in the lead. Its the height of arrogance to think that something doesn’t exist because so many people have failed to find it, when you don’t know the circumstances surrounding them.

“THERE IS NO PRIMARY EVIDENCE”

see above

“Everyone desires it, but it ain’t there, so I gather you should be bending cultery soon…”

Once again, see above

“Geez, read Chris Clarke’s Response. It ain’t as half involved as what you are laboriously trying to make it out it is…”

Chris Clarke’s response is for people who either don’t have commitments (like jobs) or are on vacation time and can make the effort and have no priorities during vacations that would keep people from going (Like me and a host of other people) have the available time (many are busy balancing their checkbook), and those that tag along an already well researched and well supplied expedition, not those who have to start from scratch. Once again, real life can and does often get in the way.

And yes, one can have a local expedition: they are far less interfered with by time and priorities (you can do them on weekends) and I have already written that I plan to do so in the future. And whether I do so in the future or not, what’s it to you? You obvious don’t believe in this kind of stuff, or at least some of it, and you have yet to answer whether yu have gone on an expedition yourself. If you are so high and mighty, then you should have gone on one yourself, overseas, without a problem. If you have not, then quit attacking your keyboard about it. Hypocrisy s not a virtue.

“Not really.”

I could say I’m Michael Moore, give you information on him, well researched info, and even his web address, and I could most likely convince hordes of people out there that I was him, when i was not. Email him to reply as to whether it is him or not, good luck: millions email him every day. People do lie about themselves online, often in very big ways.

“Chris Clarke posted under his real name.”

Did he? Would you stake your life on it that Chris Clarke is indeed the person who wrote that post? Stake someone else’s life? I bet Mr. Clarke would agree with me that someone, if good enough, could say they were a famous person while online and could most of the time get away with it. The reverse is also true: a famous person could write under a usual run of the muck name like Chief or Flame821or Hapa and interact with folk without them realizing who they were. Perhaps one reason why they would do so: so that their private views (politics, sexuality, religion, etc) are not plastered on major magazines worldwide, or that they won’t be heckled by others for believing in Bigfoot, UFOs or the like.

As for Chris Clarke: I do not doubt that who I posted too on here is indeed Chris Clarke, just as much as I do not doubt that Loren Coleman really writes here under that very name: I’m only pointing out the obvious: You cannot be 100% sure who you are talking to online, even if they say they are a major celebrity or well known figure. A person wrote as the Scientist Robert Bakker on the EVC forum a few years back, but those people couldn’t say for sure it was him or not.

quote”The kind of evidence I was discussing is primary evidence. Indesputable results.”

And as I keep repeating..that Is obvious..but this is the wrong field for your desire..and yes..you will die waiting for it.
Thats just leaves secondary evidence..there is nothing else..

quote”One of the reasons why Sasquatch has not been discovered yet is perhaps because the vast majority of expeditions going out to search for it end to quickly.”

Yep..we will pretend that the millions upon millions of of hunter man hours in the last 100 hundred years in the US and Canada..with not one body..is just due to……….a lack of time..
Tell that to the scientists/sceptics..
Uri geller is looking good..

quote”That’s an unprovable argument when it comes to blogs.”

Not really..if people want to pretend they are “experts” to judge the work of others..(who also use their real names)then they should not be afraid to use their real names and have something to back up their claims..
People do post on sites using their real names..and how far do I have to seek for an example..why on this page..Chris Clarke posted under his own name..dig around and find him on the net..real person…
Bingo..

quote”The kind of evidence I was discussing is primary evidence. Indesputable results. If you don’t desire that, in at least a few cryptids, then you need a new interest, like bending spoons…”

No..you keep misreading what I am repeatedly writing..there is no primary evidence!!!
THERE IS NO PRIMARY EVIDENCE…and you will keep popping up..jack in the box like and tell us we need it.
Like it aint obvious..
Everyone desires it..but it aint there..so I gather you should be bending cutlery soon..
Because this aint the field if you want primary evidence..you can misconstrue that comment..again if you like..i dont really care anymore..

quote “And yet secondary evidence does not do squat to prove a new species of animal exists.You need primary evidence, as a Body, parts of a body, or live specimen. ”

Your right..no one said it did..you are “arguing” with yourself…
But keep telling yourself we need it..
Because NO ONE ever figured that out before you posted that here.. LOL
And kept posting it..and kept posting it..

quote”So just because I cannot go on an expedition far across the planet in a remote jungle with the proper weapons, training, supplies, guides, other paid help and partners, etc, then I don’t care to find new species of animals”

Geez..read Chris Clarkes response..it aint as half involved as what you are laboriously trying to make it out it is..
You can even do an “expedition” near you can home sometime..if you are really keen..
Its just that some people..spend more time going over the work of others..with a fine tooth comb and a 3 response rote mantra(of the bleeding obvious)..than every get off their arses and actually ever doing anything…there is always hundreds of excuses..”but one day..I will do something”..yeah right..
The bit about weapons was a little weird….more boys own adventure …

The analogy of the Father raising his son: I would have to write a whole background story to show how what I wrote would not be considered an insult (setting , circumstances, etc) and would take too much time than I care to give. I’ve spent way more writing time that I thought I would. Plus its late (didn’t get a chance to respond to all of this till now). a better way to put it:

“That lady is the one who says she’s discovered life on Mars. Its up to her to show her primary evidence at the Press Conference: if she doesn’t pay up, its a disaster.”

Or maybe this:

“That’s my dog Leroy. He’s looking for his lost toy. Its up to him to get it, because I have no clue as to where it went too and don’t have the time. If he doesn’t get it, he goes without.”