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	<title>Comments on: One Way or the Otter, Radford/Nickell X-Files-Labeled</title>
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	<description>for Bigfoot, Loch Ness, and More</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 20:50:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Kathy Strain</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/jfr-lm/#comment-32956</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathy Strain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:08:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/jfr-lm/#comment-32956</guid>
		<description>Well, hum...

I am, of course, very supportive of folklore and its application to cryptozoology, but I didn't understand this review at all.  I have Ben and Joe's book (Ben even autographed it for me) and while I thought it could have used some additional traditional NA stories about water monster, I don't agree with the review criticism (or at least what I think it was saying...??).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, hum&#8230;</p>
<p>I am, of course, very supportive of folklore and its application to cryptozoology, but I didn&#8217;t understand this review at all.  I have Ben and Joe&#8217;s book (Ben even autographed it for me) and while I thought it could have used some additional traditional NA stories about water monster, I don&#8217;t agree with the review criticism (or at least what I think it was saying&#8230;??).</p>
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		<title>By: Ceroill</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/jfr-lm/#comment-32955</link>
		<dc:creator>Ceroill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 22:50:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/jfr-lm/#comment-32955</guid>
		<description>On tangential note, I just saw a theatrical trailer for The Water Horse. I included that bit of it leaping out of the water. Effects look good, but I won't spoil things any more than that for those waiting to see it themselves. Promises to be a fun film, regardless of your stance on Nessie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On tangential note, I just saw a theatrical trailer for The Water Horse. I included that bit of it leaping out of the water. Effects look good, but I won&#8217;t spoil things any more than that for those waiting to see it themselves. Promises to be a fun film, regardless of your stance on Nessie.</p>
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		<title>By: Regan Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/jfr-lm/#comment-32954</link>
		<dc:creator>Regan Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 19:06:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/jfr-lm/#comment-32954</guid>
		<description>As someone who was a folklore major (six years) I just want to support and reiterate Jerome Clark's post on folklore. Well said!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who was a folklore major (six years) I just want to support and reiterate Jerome Clark&#8217;s post on folklore. Well said!</p>
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		<title>By: DWA</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/jfr-lm/#comment-32953</link>
		<dc:creator>DWA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 16:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/jfr-lm/#comment-32953</guid>
		<description>mystery_man makes a good point about folklore.

One thing that is interesting about Native American accounts of the sasquatch, and their accounts of scientifically known animals, is that THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE in what's being said.  Every animal, from the deer mouse on up, has fantastical powers and qualities.  None is portrayed as a simple critter.  And pictorial evidence of the sasquatch in West Coast native cultures differs not a jot from the way in which other animals have been depicted.  The only difference is the details of the pictures.

One problem with skeptics - one that should be appropriately highlighted here - is the skeptical tendency to seize on the wildest claims, and discuss only those, or in the alternative, to insist that the silly stuff be given equal weight with everything else.  It's pretty obviously off base that "to accurately understand eyewitness accounts, researchers can’t pick and choose. They must consider all reports, focusing not just on the unidentified but also on the misidenfied. Only with this scientific and statistical understanding does a valid picture emerge..."  Um, well, wrong there.  A valid picture, which we must presume means one that a scientist would buy as worthy of further research, can only be obtained by focusing on the commonalities among reports, as one cannot, by definition, "focus" on outliers that leave nothing to search and could easily be the products of overactive imaginations, True Believers, or just plain liars.  If I told you that I saw pink, green and violet moose on my recently concluded trip, would you jump on that track if you were a scientist?  Boy, I would hope not.  But now, if 650 people from a small Maine town took their sightings of such critters to the press, as a body, things might be a bit more interesting to me.

There lies the big problem with lake monsters, folks.  What are the commonalities?  What is the Loch Ness Monster?  A plesiosaur?  A giant slug?  The Radio City RockOtters?

The sasquatch is a bipedal ape.  If you think it's anything else, I'll take the bet.  Provided it exists, of course.

THAT, to me, is the difference between a whassit? and something science might want to look into.  One thing that can be pretty clearly sussed from folkloric accounts is the commonalities on which a search can be based.  And science can take it from there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mystery_man makes a good point about folklore.</p>
<p>One thing that is interesting about Native American accounts of the sasquatch, and their accounts of scientifically known animals, is that THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE in what&#8217;s being said.  Every animal, from the deer mouse on up, has fantastical powers and qualities.  None is portrayed as a simple critter.  And pictorial evidence of the sasquatch in West Coast native cultures differs not a jot from the way in which other animals have been depicted.  The only difference is the details of the pictures.</p>
<p>One problem with skeptics - one that should be appropriately highlighted here - is the skeptical tendency to seize on the wildest claims, and discuss only those, or in the alternative, to insist that the silly stuff be given equal weight with everything else.  It&#8217;s pretty obviously off base that &#8220;to accurately understand eyewitness accounts, researchers can’t pick and choose. They must consider all reports, focusing not just on the unidentified but also on the misidenfied. Only with this scientific and statistical understanding does a valid picture emerge&#8230;&#8221;  Um, well, wrong there.  A valid picture, which we must presume means one that a scientist would buy as worthy of further research, can only be obtained by focusing on the commonalities among reports, as one cannot, by definition, &#8220;focus&#8221; on outliers that leave nothing to search and could easily be the products of overactive imaginations, True Believers, or just plain liars.  If I told you that I saw pink, green and violet moose on my recently concluded trip, would you jump on that track if you were a scientist?  Boy, I would hope not.  But now, if 650 people from a small Maine town took their sightings of such critters to the press, as a body, things might be a bit more interesting to me.</p>
<p>There lies the big problem with lake monsters, folks.  What are the commonalities?  What is the Loch Ness Monster?  A plesiosaur?  A giant slug?  The Radio City RockOtters?</p>
<p>The sasquatch is a bipedal ape.  If you think it&#8217;s anything else, I&#8217;ll take the bet.  Provided it exists, of course.</p>
<p>THAT, to me, is the difference between a whassit? and something science might want to look into.  One thing that can be pretty clearly sussed from folkloric accounts is the commonalities on which a search can be based.  And science can take it from there.</p>
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		<title>By: darkshines</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/jfr-lm/#comment-32952</link>
		<dc:creator>darkshines</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 15:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/jfr-lm/#comment-32952</guid>
		<description>I had a discussion with my skeptic mother last weekend about cryptids. She said if there is a really a monster in Loch Ness, it must be the only creature in the world that can live for hundreds of years, alone. You never see more than one, and it has been sighted since St Columbus. Really? Folklore is interesting, but the sightings from THIS decade will almost certainly not be valid NEXT decade, let alone in hundreds of years. Until we start getting more PHYSICAL evidence, folklore, as far as I am concerned, is a load of drunken ghost stories, rumours and fairy stories. Bring on the proof.

P.S. I'm not a skeptic in anyway, I know sea monsters are real. But like I said, proof would be nice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a discussion with my skeptic mother last weekend about cryptids. She said if there is a really a monster in Loch Ness, it must be the only creature in the world that can live for hundreds of years, alone. You never see more than one, and it has been sighted since St Columbus. Really? Folklore is interesting, but the sightings from THIS decade will almost certainly not be valid NEXT decade, let alone in hundreds of years. Until we start getting more PHYSICAL evidence, folklore, as far as I am concerned, is a load of drunken ghost stories, rumours and fairy stories. Bring on the proof.</p>
<p>P.S. I&#8217;m not a skeptic in anyway, I know sea monsters are real. But like I said, proof would be nice.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin Radford</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/jfr-lm/#comment-32951</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Radford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 14:45:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/jfr-lm/#comment-32951</guid>
		<description>"I do not see any scientists trying to review books on folklore, so it is curious to me."

Well said, MM!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I do not see any scientists trying to review books on folklore, so it is curious to me.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well said, MM!</p>
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		<title>By: mystery_man</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/jfr-lm/#comment-32950</link>
		<dc:creator>mystery_man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 03:57:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/jfr-lm/#comment-32950</guid>
		<description>MrAtomicEmonster, Good observation. I like Jerome Clark's thoughts on folklore as well. I myself am very interested in Japanese folklore, so the ideas being presented here are nice to see.  I too think that folklore and cryptozoology are not necessarily mutually exclusive, as indeed there could be real animals buried under the supposed myths and this has happened in many native cultures. For example, many animals in Japan that are known creatures are still surrounded by a good deal of legend and folklore, so I get the impression that just because an animal is cloaked in folklore, doesn't mean it does not exist and there could possibly be a grain of truth to some of the stories. One thing that I find particularly interesting is the presence of remarkably similar folklore in far flung cultures that would not have had any contact with each other. Folkloric references to dragons and hairy hominids, for example are found in cultures throughout the world. What to makes of this? Are these archetypes buried deep within the subconscious of all human beings, a sort of primordial racial memory, or is there another explanation? Fascinating stuff to me.

I think Jerome Clark also hit the nail on the head when he said that in some cases these folkloric accounts could very well be the only records of sightings that were not taken serious by anyone else.  Perhaps some of the old accounts can offer interesting insights into the habits or behaviors of these possible cryptids or of other anomalous experiences, as well as how time has tempered the perception of these stories. While I think folklore should not be relied on too heavily in a scientific undertaking, I feel it can be a valuable tool when delving into some of the history behind certain cryptids and definitely is useful for inspiring debate and speculation that can yield good theories.

Again, I haven't read the book myself, so anyone correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like the research done on this book was done in a scientific way, using scientific methods while using folklore only as a tool. It does not seem that Mr. Radford was trying to write a book on folklore, but rather on a scientific analysis of cryptozoological phenomena with some folklore thrown to illustrate the history and psychological effects of these animals. If that is the case and this is mostly a scientific study, then it seems odd that a folklorist give this sort of review. I do not see any scientists trying to review books on folklore, so it is curious to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MrAtomicEmonster, Good observation. I like Jerome Clark&#8217;s thoughts on folklore as well. I myself am very interested in Japanese folklore, so the ideas being presented here are nice to see.  I too think that folklore and cryptozoology are not necessarily mutually exclusive, as indeed there could be real animals buried under the supposed myths and this has happened in many native cultures. For example, many animals in Japan that are known creatures are still surrounded by a good deal of legend and folklore, so I get the impression that just because an animal is cloaked in folklore, doesn&#8217;t mean it does not exist and there could possibly be a grain of truth to some of the stories. One thing that I find particularly interesting is the presence of remarkably similar folklore in far flung cultures that would not have had any contact with each other. Folkloric references to dragons and hairy hominids, for example are found in cultures throughout the world. What to makes of this? Are these archetypes buried deep within the subconscious of all human beings, a sort of primordial racial memory, or is there another explanation? Fascinating stuff to me.</p>
<p>I think Jerome Clark also hit the nail on the head when he said that in some cases these folkloric accounts could very well be the only records of sightings that were not taken serious by anyone else.  Perhaps some of the old accounts can offer interesting insights into the habits or behaviors of these possible cryptids or of other anomalous experiences, as well as how time has tempered the perception of these stories. While I think folklore should not be relied on too heavily in a scientific undertaking, I feel it can be a valuable tool when delving into some of the history behind certain cryptids and definitely is useful for inspiring debate and speculation that can yield good theories.</p>
<p>Again, I haven&#8217;t read the book myself, so anyone correct me if I&#8217;m wrong but it seems like the research done on this book was done in a scientific way, using scientific methods while using folklore only as a tool. It does not seem that Mr. Radford was trying to write a book on folklore, but rather on a scientific analysis of cryptozoological phenomena with some folklore thrown to illustrate the history and psychological effects of these animals. If that is the case and this is mostly a scientific study, then it seems odd that a folklorist give this sort of review. I do not see any scientists trying to review books on folklore, so it is curious to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Rillo777</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/jfr-lm/#comment-32949</link>
		<dc:creator>Rillo777</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 23:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Well said Jerome Clark!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said Jerome Clark!</p>
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		<title>By: AtomicMrEMonster</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/jfr-lm/#comment-32948</link>
		<dc:creator>AtomicMrEMonster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 21:22:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/jfr-lm/#comment-32948</guid>
		<description>Okay, I'm confused, both by the review and the otter references (Although I must admit to being happy to see people referencing the pictures I found).  How would having pictures of otters moving in lines have effected the reviewer's opinions on the book?  The reviewer even said that:
&lt;blockquote&gt;After providing examples of interviews, document analysis, and &lt;strong&gt;photographic evidence&lt;/strong&gt;, the analysis and conclusions fall into the category of “stating the obvious” or a recount of the observational methods employed.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Am I missing something here?  Sure, a psychological study would be interesting, but criticizing the book for not having that is kind of like someone giving a bad review to movie because a character they were attracted to didn't get naked onscreen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, I&#8217;m confused, both by the review and the otter references (Although I must admit to being happy to see people referencing the pictures I found).  How would having pictures of otters moving in lines have effected the reviewer&#8217;s opinions on the book?  The reviewer even said that:</p>
<blockquote><p>After providing examples of interviews, document analysis, and <strong>photographic evidence</strong>, the analysis and conclusions fall into the category of “stating the obvious” or a recount of the observational methods employed.</p></blockquote>
<p>Am I missing something here?  Sure, a psychological study would be interesting, but criticizing the book for not having that is kind of like someone giving a bad review to movie because a character they were attracted to didn&#8217;t get naked onscreen.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin Radford</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/jfr-lm/#comment-32947</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Radford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 18:26:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/jfr-lm/#comment-32947</guid>
		<description>I agree with Jerome Clark that folklore is an important part of the study of animals; in fact, for most of the lake monsters we investigated, we included a discussion of the stories about the creatures. The folkore surrounding Ogopogo is particularly fascinating, and in fact I wrote an entire article on the monster primarily from a folkloric perspective: http://www.csicop.org/si/2006-01/ogopogo.html.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Jerome Clark that folklore is an important part of the study of animals; in fact, for most of the lake monsters we investigated, we included a discussion of the stories about the creatures. The folkore surrounding Ogopogo is particularly fascinating, and in fact I wrote an entire article on the monster primarily from a folkloric perspective: <a href="http://www.csicop.org/si/2006-01/ogopogo.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.csicop.org/si/2006-01/ogopogo.html</a>.</p>
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