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	<title>Comments on: Indonesian Coelacanth Filmed</title>
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	<description>for Bigfoot, Lake Monsters, Sea Serpents and More</description>
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		<title>By: gnaylor</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/indocoelfilm/comment-page-1/#comment-3691</link>
		<dc:creator>gnaylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:00:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/live-indonesian-coelacanths-filmed/#comment-3691</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[a japanese group headed by Dr. Jun Inouye has recently sequenced the entire mitochondrial genome of both the Indonesian and the African coelacanth.  The data show extensive diferences in the DNA sequences. The differences are comparable to the genetic differences between humans and new world monkeys (spider monkeys etc.). This suggests that the physical similarities in the two forms are a reflection of highly constrained evolutionary divergence. They are unlikely to be the same species by almost any of the rigorous criteria used to assess species disctinctness.  Its quite remarkable to see such conservation in morphology with such differences in the DNA sequences.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a japanese group headed by Dr. Jun Inouye has recently sequenced the entire mitochondrial genome of both the Indonesian and the African coelacanth.  The data show extensive diferences in the DNA sequences. The differences are comparable to the genetic differences between humans and new world monkeys (spider monkeys etc.). This suggests that the physical similarities in the two forms are a reflection of highly constrained evolutionary divergence. They are unlikely to be the same species by almost any of the rigorous criteria used to assess species disctinctness.  Its quite remarkable to see such conservation in morphology with such differences in the DNA sequences.</p>
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		<title>By: Mnynames</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/indocoelfilm/comment-page-1/#comment-3695</link>
		<dc:creator>Mnynames</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jun 2006 04:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Well, you mentioned the possibility of the Coelacanth as being circumtropical...there have been several reports suggesting A population somewhere in the Caribbean.  Perhaps more effort should be done to uncover the truth of the matter?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, you mentioned the possibility of the Coelacanth as being circumtropical&#8230;there have been several reports suggesting A population somewhere in the Caribbean.  Perhaps more effort should be done to uncover the truth of the matter?</p>
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		<title>By: Ranatemporaria</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/indocoelfilm/comment-page-1/#comment-3694</link>
		<dc:creator>Ranatemporaria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 14:30:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/live-indonesian-coelacanths-filmed/#comment-3694</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting questions Mr Wells and they are issues I have tried to bring up many times here before.  The definition of what constitutes a species depends in most instances on what question your trying to answer.  The Most commonly adopted Biological Species Concept (Mayer) defines species as groups of interbreeding natural populations that are reproductively isolated from other such group. As you point out isolation takes many forms including physical barriers, temporal asynchrony as well as biological pre and post zygotic factors.  Many problems arise with this theory however i.e. hybrids with increased fitness, and populations in allopatry  (isolated), such as the European red dear and the north American elk, both species (Cervus elaphus) are they separate species though because naturally they will never meet and exchange genes.

Species definition and validity is a hot topic in ecology, if you’re interested there are lots of good papers try searching for Species concepts or Taxonomic inflation or NJ Isaac, J Mallet, GM Mace on Google scholar should give you a good start!

Lots of interesting facts figures and stats to be found in resent papers that I would have thought would act as useful tools in a cryptozoologists armoury in the fight against scepticism.  However there seems to be a lack of enthusiasm by many when it comes to “mainstream science”.  What is classed as “regular” or mainstream ecology and biology can be as mysterious as cryptozoology, I just wish they would move closer together as opposed to drifting apart.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting questions Mr Wells and they are issues I have tried to bring up many times here before.  The definition of what constitutes a species depends in most instances on what question your trying to answer.  The Most commonly adopted Biological Species Concept (Mayer) defines species as groups of interbreeding natural populations that are reproductively isolated from other such group. As you point out isolation takes many forms including physical barriers, temporal asynchrony as well as biological pre and post zygotic factors.  Many problems arise with this theory however i.e. hybrids with increased fitness, and populations in allopatry  (isolated), such as the European red dear and the north American elk, both species (Cervus elaphus) are they separate species though because naturally they will never meet and exchange genes.</p>
<p>Species definition and validity is a hot topic in ecology, if you’re interested there are lots of good papers try searching for Species concepts or Taxonomic inflation or NJ Isaac, J Mallet, GM Mace on Google scholar should give you a good start!</p>
<p>Lots of interesting facts figures and stats to be found in resent papers that I would have thought would act as useful tools in a cryptozoologists armoury in the fight against scepticism.  However there seems to be a lack of enthusiasm by many when it comes to “mainstream science”.  What is classed as “regular” or mainstream ecology and biology can be as mysterious as cryptozoology, I just wish they would move closer together as opposed to drifting apart.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy_Wells</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/indocoelfilm/comment-page-1/#comment-3693</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy_Wells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:42:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/live-indonesian-coelacanths-filmed/#comment-3693</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Whether they are two distinct species, or simply regional variations or &quot;sub-species&quot;, the coelacanth deserves study.
One thing I think we don&#039;t talk about enough in cryptozoology is the possible development of brand new species or sub-species in isolated populations and what this could mean to the field.

Take, for example, the chimpanzee/bonobo/bili ape distinctions. While the bonobo now get seperate billing, most of the things I&#039;ve read on the bili ape consider it a &quot;sub-species&quot; of the common chimpanzee.

But at what point does the isolation of a sub-species lead to the development of a new species? For instance there are 5 different varieties of wild turkey found in the U.S. (Eastern, Osceola, Merriam&#039;s, Rio Grande and Gould&#039;s) and they exhibit differences in size, coloration, and habits. However they are all considered the same species. Turkeys, of course, can fly very well, so natural barriers like the Mississippi River aren&#039;t that big of an issue. But what if other barriers lead to isolation for a sub-species. How long before they could no longer produce viable offspring with others of their &quot;specie&quot; and are then considered a distinct species instead of a subspecies.

And, why are some genetically compatible species considered different species instead of sub-species. For instance wolves and domestic dogs (canis lupus and canis familiarus) were originally considered seperate, but now domestic dogs are considered a sub-specie of the wolf and have been reclassified as canis lupus familiarus. This makes sense, as dogs and wolves can, and according to the folks at swap meets often do, produce viable offspring.
However when you talk about coyote (canis latrans), things are different. Coyote and dogs can reproduce however, from my readings, these offspring are almost always the result of male dogs and female coyote and, while these offspring aren&#039;t infertile like mules, it is difficult for them to reproduce. The reason for this (and the fact that the offspring are most often male dog/female coyote crosses) results from the unique nature of male coyote fertility. From my reading (and this is as a layperson, so biologists please feel free to correct me here) like females, male coyotes are fertile in &quot;cycles&quot; that correspond to female estrus, whereas male dogs are always fertile. This makes it easier then for a male dog to impregnate a female coyote than vice versa. When the offspring are born, however, the fertility cycle in the males are &quot;out of synch&quot; making it difficult for them to then reproduce. As a result the animals are practically, if not actually, fertile.

So what we see here is a genetic &quot;dead end&quot; in the interbreeding of closely related species.

While I know I&#039;ve now gone way away from the original coelacanth post, the bigger, generic question that was raised remains. At what point are two related species &quot;different species&quot; and not &quot;sub-species&quot; or regional variants?

I mean, back to dogs, archaelogists a million years from now could be forgiven for assuming that a chihuahua and a great dane were two seperate species of canid, based simply on the morphological difference, even though genetics tell us they are both just really in-bred wolves.

And back to our favorite cryptids, the hairy hominids, what about the tales of drunken villagers impregnating adopted almases, or of BF kidnapping humans? Would the offspring be like the coydog? Like a mule? Or like a perfectly fertile collie/beagle mix?

Just some food for thought.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whether they are two distinct species, or simply regional variations or &#8220;sub-species&#8221;, the coelacanth deserves study.<br />
One thing I think we don&#8217;t talk about enough in cryptozoology is the possible development of brand new species or sub-species in isolated populations and what this could mean to the field.</p>
<p>Take, for example, the chimpanzee/bonobo/bili ape distinctions. While the bonobo now get seperate billing, most of the things I&#8217;ve read on the bili ape consider it a &#8220;sub-species&#8221; of the common chimpanzee.</p>
<p>But at what point does the isolation of a sub-species lead to the development of a new species? For instance there are 5 different varieties of wild turkey found in the U.S. (Eastern, Osceola, Merriam&#8217;s, Rio Grande and Gould&#8217;s) and they exhibit differences in size, coloration, and habits. However they are all considered the same species. Turkeys, of course, can fly very well, so natural barriers like the Mississippi River aren&#8217;t that big of an issue. But what if other barriers lead to isolation for a sub-species. How long before they could no longer produce viable offspring with others of their &#8220;specie&#8221; and are then considered a distinct species instead of a subspecies.</p>
<p>And, why are some genetically compatible species considered different species instead of sub-species. For instance wolves and domestic dogs (canis lupus and canis familiarus) were originally considered seperate, but now domestic dogs are considered a sub-specie of the wolf and have been reclassified as canis lupus familiarus. This makes sense, as dogs and wolves can, and according to the folks at swap meets often do, produce viable offspring.<br />
However when you talk about coyote (canis latrans), things are different. Coyote and dogs can reproduce however, from my readings, these offspring are almost always the result of male dogs and female coyote and, while these offspring aren&#8217;t infertile like mules, it is difficult for them to reproduce. The reason for this (and the fact that the offspring are most often male dog/female coyote crosses) results from the unique nature of male coyote fertility. From my reading (and this is as a layperson, so biologists please feel free to correct me here) like females, male coyotes are fertile in &#8220;cycles&#8221; that correspond to female estrus, whereas male dogs are always fertile. This makes it easier then for a male dog to impregnate a female coyote than vice versa. When the offspring are born, however, the fertility cycle in the males are &#8220;out of synch&#8221; making it difficult for them to then reproduce. As a result the animals are practically, if not actually, fertile.</p>
<p>So what we see here is a genetic &#8220;dead end&#8221; in the interbreeding of closely related species.</p>
<p>While I know I&#8217;ve now gone way away from the original coelacanth post, the bigger, generic question that was raised remains. At what point are two related species &#8220;different species&#8221; and not &#8220;sub-species&#8221; or regional variants?</p>
<p>I mean, back to dogs, archaelogists a million years from now could be forgiven for assuming that a chihuahua and a great dane were two seperate species of canid, based simply on the morphological difference, even though genetics tell us they are both just really in-bred wolves.</p>
<p>And back to our favorite cryptids, the hairy hominids, what about the tales of drunken villagers impregnating adopted almases, or of BF kidnapping humans? Would the offspring be like the coydog? Like a mule? Or like a perfectly fertile collie/beagle mix?</p>
<p>Just some food for thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Ranatemporaria</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/indocoelfilm/comment-page-1/#comment-3692</link>
		<dc:creator>Ranatemporaria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:32:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/live-indonesian-coelacanths-filmed/#comment-3692</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Exactly, an thats why its interesting! If something presumed extinct could infact be numerous then there is more hope that many other species may still be extanct or undiscovered as yet!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly, an thats why its interesting! If something presumed extinct could infact be numerous then there is more hope that many other species may still be extanct or undiscovered as yet!</p>
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		<title>By: U.T. Raptor</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/indocoelfilm/comment-page-1/#comment-3690</link>
		<dc:creator>U.T. Raptor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:07:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/live-indonesian-coelacanths-filmed/#comment-3690</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Perhaps because it is presumed to be very very rare and previously thought to be extinct?&quot;
The key word there is &quot;presumed&quot;. We found the two known populations by accident, and there&#039;s no way of knowing how many others there might be out there...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Perhaps because it is presumed to be very very rare and previously thought to be extinct?&#8221;<br />
The key word there is &#8220;presumed&#8221;. We found the two known populations by accident, and there&#8217;s no way of knowing how many others there might be out there&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ranatemporaria</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/indocoelfilm/comment-page-1/#comment-3689</link>
		<dc:creator>Ranatemporaria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/live-indonesian-coelacanths-filmed/#comment-3689</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[well ok it is! Interesting non the less!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well ok it is! Interesting non the less!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ranatemporaria</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/indocoelfilm/comment-page-1/#comment-3688</link>
		<dc:creator>Ranatemporaria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:50:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/live-indonesian-coelacanths-filmed/#comment-3688</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[But surely this blog is simply interesting information that was not known. Ok It is well know that species classification is changing all the time with taxanomic inflation and all, but here were just given more insight into a little known and mysterious animal! Can we not just take it as that?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But surely this blog is simply interesting information that was not known. Ok It is well know that species classification is changing all the time with taxanomic inflation and all, but here were just given more insight into a little known and mysterious animal! Can we not just take it as that?</p>
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		<title>By: DWA</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/indocoelfilm/comment-page-1/#comment-3687</link>
		<dc:creator>DWA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:42:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/live-indonesian-coelacanths-filmed/#comment-3687</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rana:  I think you&#039;re missing my thrust here.

Now that we know the thing exists, something we&#039;ve known since 1938, it shouldn&#039;t be a shock either to find out that (a) the formerly-two-species are in fact one (happens all the time in biology; for example with birds it happens every year or two) or (b) that they&#039;re two species.

The &quot;earthshaking&quot; stuff&#039;s been done.  (As it will have been once relict hominoids are confirmed.)  After that it&#039;s just sorting out data.

As exciting, of course, as that will be.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rana:  I think you&#8217;re missing my thrust here.</p>
<p>Now that we know the thing exists, something we&#8217;ve known since 1938, it shouldn&#8217;t be a shock either to find out that (a) the formerly-two-species are in fact one (happens all the time in biology; for example with birds it happens every year or two) or (b) that they&#8217;re two species.</p>
<p>The &#8220;earthshaking&#8221; stuff&#8217;s been done.  (As it will have been once relict hominoids are confirmed.)  After that it&#8217;s just sorting out data.</p>
<p>As exciting, of course, as that will be.</p>
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		<title>By: Ranatemporaria</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/indocoelfilm/comment-page-1/#comment-3686</link>
		<dc:creator>Ranatemporaria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:35:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/live-indonesian-coelacanths-filmed/#comment-3686</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[DWA
&quot;Why not this one...?&quot;

Perhaps because it is presumed to be very very rare and previously thought to be extinct?  Ok there are many fish with wide distribution, but distribution often goes hand in hand with knowledge about the species, i.e. common animals are well described!  This is interesting because little is known about the species. Would you loose all interest in BF once it has been found and identified?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DWA<br />
&#8220;Why not this one&#8230;?&#8221;</p>
<p>Perhaps because it is presumed to be very very rare and previously thought to be extinct?  Ok there are many fish with wide distribution, but distribution often goes hand in hand with knowledge about the species, i.e. common animals are well described!  This is interesting because little is known about the species. Would you loose all interest in BF once it has been found and identified?</p>
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