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	<title>Comments on: Extinct Ibex Is Back ~ By Cloning</title>
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		<title>By: Squiver</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/ibex-clone/comment-page-1/#comment-52073</link>
		<dc:creator>Squiver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:13:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/?p=10819#comment-52073</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In addition to my last comment, in hindsight the article seemed strange in that it had mentioned wanting to bring back species such as woolly mammoths and dinosaurs, almost as if it were a moral guilt that these species are gone. I know that this isn&#039;t at all the case and in the event of such ancient wonders it is a matter of curiosity, but it accounts for a curious moral responsibility now that we have a little more God in our &quot;toolbox&quot;; what species are we to ressurect, or, more to the point, what do we claim responsibility for?

For instance, do we bring back the Giant Moa of New Zealand because the native Maori islanders, upon arriving on the island, drove it to extinction out of primal fear? Or, do we call the intrusion of the early settlers a natural progression of survival and evolution?

As much of an environmentalist as I am it seems to me that if we were to glue all of the leaves back onto the tree that we had ripped off, we may be adhering dead leaves to an otherwise healthy tree, never giving it room to bud.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In addition to my last comment, in hindsight the article seemed strange in that it had mentioned wanting to bring back species such as woolly mammoths and dinosaurs, almost as if it were a moral guilt that these species are gone. I know that this isn&#8217;t at all the case and in the event of such ancient wonders it is a matter of curiosity, but it accounts for a curious moral responsibility now that we have a little more God in our &#8220;toolbox&#8221;; what species are we to ressurect, or, more to the point, what do we claim responsibility for?</p>
<p>For instance, do we bring back the Giant Moa of New Zealand because the native Maori islanders, upon arriving on the island, drove it to extinction out of primal fear? Or, do we call the intrusion of the early settlers a natural progression of survival and evolution?</p>
<p>As much of an environmentalist as I am it seems to me that if we were to glue all of the leaves back onto the tree that we had ripped off, we may be adhering dead leaves to an otherwise healthy tree, never giving it room to bud.</p>
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		<title>By: Squiver</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/ibex-clone/comment-page-1/#comment-52072</link>
		<dc:creator>Squiver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 21:39:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/?p=10819#comment-52072</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I have to suspect that along with inbreeding (whose prominence as a perceived cause for decline is likely conflated with our instinctual taboo psychology regarding the subject) there are other human factors, like poaching or harrassment.&quot;

In the particular case of the Ibex Mountain Goat, they, like all other species of mountain goat so infamously are, are extremely stubborn and ill-adaptable. They don&#039;t breed unless under ideal conditions, their diet is scarce and extremely exclusive, they don&#039;t do well in the company of human contact even the slightest, and in short, they don&#039;t survive well through much of anything, so it&#039;s no surprise to me that the population would not be able to sustain itself at 30 for more than a few decades.

As to the suggestion of Thylacine breeding I had always thought that myself (in fact I was surprised to see this article, I didn&#039;t know cloning of endangered species was a breakthough, I thought it was available technology for some time now...), but I wonder what genetic material is still valid for cloning after 70 years. After all, certainly no specimen was cryogenically frozen, and unless any of the fur particles or any of the preserved pickled specimens retain completely in tact DNA (I&#039;ll admit I have not the faintest idea the impact of pickling on the DNA of a body), it would be difficult to bring back the Thylacine, even with the most advanced technology, tragically.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I have to suspect that along with inbreeding (whose prominence as a perceived cause for decline is likely conflated with our instinctual taboo psychology regarding the subject) there are other human factors, like poaching or harrassment.&#8221;</p>
<p>In the particular case of the Ibex Mountain Goat, they, like all other species of mountain goat so infamously are, are extremely stubborn and ill-adaptable. They don&#8217;t breed unless under ideal conditions, their diet is scarce and extremely exclusive, they don&#8217;t do well in the company of human contact even the slightest, and in short, they don&#8217;t survive well through much of anything, so it&#8217;s no surprise to me that the population would not be able to sustain itself at 30 for more than a few decades.</p>
<p>As to the suggestion of Thylacine breeding I had always thought that myself (in fact I was surprised to see this article, I didn&#8217;t know cloning of endangered species was a breakthough, I thought it was available technology for some time now&#8230;), but I wonder what genetic material is still valid for cloning after 70 years. After all, certainly no specimen was cryogenically frozen, and unless any of the fur particles or any of the preserved pickled specimens retain completely in tact DNA (I&#8217;ll admit I have not the faintest idea the impact of pickling on the DNA of a body), it would be difficult to bring back the Thylacine, even with the most advanced technology, tragically.</p>
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		<title>By: dogu4</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/ibex-clone/comment-page-1/#comment-51265</link>
		<dc:creator>dogu4</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Feb 2009 13:59:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/?p=10819#comment-51265</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m a strong proponent of using whatever tool in the kit we have available and not disregarding any but it&#039;s interesting to note that a couple of days ago the NYT featured an &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/30/science/earth/30forest.html?_r=1&amp;scp=1&amp;sq=jungle&amp;st=cse&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;article&lt;/a&gt; regarding the jungle re-claiming land abandoned by small farmers and villagers in the jungle...so maybe the natural habitat and its denizens are proving to be more resilient than we sometimes give &#039;em credit. We have seen something of the same effect here in North America and even in central Eurasia where vast areas have become depopulated as people migrate towards urban centers and jobs, peasant labor no longer being economical at those scales on marginal lands, but whose hedges, swamps and woodlots provide a home some of the original inventory...and a few others.

As for bringing back by genetic engineering now extinct populations even with the absence of their original habitat, I don&#039;t think that the absence of the ecosystems we associate with them is all that important. Animals are adaptive and there are many examples of animals surprising their researchers by finding themselves able to survive in habitat that would not have been considered compatible. That adaptability is the wild card in the game and science can&#039;t bank on it or predict it, but nobody who watches with interest can ignore it or deny its existence. 

More is better!

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a strong proponent of using whatever tool in the kit we have available and not disregarding any but it&#8217;s interesting to note that a couple of days ago the NYT featured an <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/30/science/earth/30forest.html?_r=1&amp;scp=1&amp;sq=jungle&amp;st=cse" rel="nofollow">article</a> regarding the jungle re-claiming land abandoned by small farmers and villagers in the jungle&#8230;so maybe the natural habitat and its denizens are proving to be more resilient than we sometimes give &#8216;em credit. We have seen something of the same effect here in North America and even in central Eurasia where vast areas have become depopulated as people migrate towards urban centers and jobs, peasant labor no longer being economical at those scales on marginal lands, but whose hedges, swamps and woodlots provide a home some of the original inventory&#8230;and a few others.</p>
<p>As for bringing back by genetic engineering now extinct populations even with the absence of their original habitat, I don&#8217;t think that the absence of the ecosystems we associate with them is all that important. Animals are adaptive and there are many examples of animals surprising their researchers by finding themselves able to survive in habitat that would not have been considered compatible. That adaptability is the wild card in the game and science can&#8217;t bank on it or predict it, but nobody who watches with interest can ignore it or deny its existence. </p>
<p>More is better!</p>
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		<title>By: kittenz</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/ibex-clone/comment-page-1/#comment-51258</link>
		<dc:creator>kittenz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Feb 2009 03:19:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/?p=10819#comment-51258</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I want the development of cloning to continue. Habitat issues have to be addressed, of course - for our own good as well as for the animals. Animals are much better off in their own habitats. But the reality is that humans are overtaking habitats at an ever-increasing rate. Space and resources for animals are becoming more expensive and scarce every day. Already some species survive only in preserves and zoos. Cloning can help to preserve some species that will otherwise go extinct, until possibly habitat issues can be resolved. Cloning can also be used to help preserve genetic diversity in species whose populations have not yet reached a bottleneck.

And the day will come, probably not in my lifetime but maybe sooner than we think, when humans are ready to migrate from Spaceship Earth and populate other planets. Cloned embryos could be used to &quot;seed&quot; those new worlds with life, giving species new habitats in which they can continue to survive and evolve.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want the development of cloning to continue. Habitat issues have to be addressed, of course &#8211; for our own good as well as for the animals. Animals are much better off in their own habitats. But the reality is that humans are overtaking habitats at an ever-increasing rate. Space and resources for animals are becoming more expensive and scarce every day. Already some species survive only in preserves and zoos. Cloning can help to preserve some species that will otherwise go extinct, until possibly habitat issues can be resolved. Cloning can also be used to help preserve genetic diversity in species whose populations have not yet reached a bottleneck.</p>
<p>And the day will come, probably not in my lifetime but maybe sooner than we think, when humans are ready to migrate from Spaceship Earth and populate other planets. Cloned embryos could be used to &#8220;seed&#8221; those new worlds with life, giving species new habitats in which they can continue to survive and evolve.</p>
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		<title>By: BeastInTheLake</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/ibex-clone/comment-page-1/#comment-51254</link>
		<dc:creator>BeastInTheLake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Feb 2009 01:52:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/?p=10819#comment-51254</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mystery_Man, I quite agree with your principles, and I wouldn&#039;t want to resurrect a species whose environment had become irrevocably damaged. My point is just, that I don&#039;t see much chance of the holistic approach, you talk about, becoming the general rule in the near future. It may be spreading in the western world, but in the third world population pressure and the (understandable) drive for a higher standard of living is leading to environmental destruction at an alarming rate.
I hope this is not an irrevocable process - after all the West has begun to protect whatever wilderness it has left and even to repair some of the damage done previously. Hopefully this will eventually happen in the rest of the world too - and in that situation it would be great if we could also bring back the animals belonging to those environments.
In other words, my outlook is one of short-term pessimism and long-term... well, hope, at least.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mystery_Man, I quite agree with your principles, and I wouldn&#8217;t want to resurrect a species whose environment had become irrevocably damaged. My point is just, that I don&#8217;t see much chance of the holistic approach, you talk about, becoming the general rule in the near future. It may be spreading in the western world, but in the third world population pressure and the (understandable) drive for a higher standard of living is leading to environmental destruction at an alarming rate.<br />
I hope this is not an irrevocable process &#8211; after all the West has begun to protect whatever wilderness it has left and even to repair some of the damage done previously. Hopefully this will eventually happen in the rest of the world too &#8211; and in that situation it would be great if we could also bring back the animals belonging to those environments.<br />
In other words, my outlook is one of short-term pessimism and long-term&#8230; well, hope, at least.</p>
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		<title>By: mystery_man</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/ibex-clone/comment-page-1/#comment-51207</link>
		<dc:creator>mystery_man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 23:24:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/?p=10819#comment-51207</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, I may seem idealistic, but I&#039;m also being practical.

I understand wanting to have this one in our toolbox, cloning can be a good option in some cases. It is worthwhile. But really, cloning an animal isn&#039;t going to do much good if we don&#039;t address the underlying reasons for why the animal went extinct in the first place. What good is cloning if those factors are not fixed? Animals and their habitat are intrinsically linked, you cannot have one function healthily without the other. If these problems with habitat and human influence aren&#039;t rectified, cloning will be just be at best a temporary fix, the animals will very likely just go extinct again and what then? We clone again, and around and around we go. It&#039;s like putting a band aid on a very serious wound, it stops the blood for now, but doesn&#039;t do much to mend the reason why you are bleeding in the first place. 

What good is having the animal resurrected if it has nowhere to go? You can clone animals all you want, but if things like habitat loss, pollution, and human interference aren&#039;t fixed, the only thing these cloned animals are going to be good for is zoos, where we can see the kind of biodiversity that once inhabited our planet in the wild. It seems to me that cloning without any solid plans for conservation, habitat preservation or ensuring that the same thing doesn&#039;t happen again is folly. I tend to think cloning should be a last resort, and even then only in conjunction with some plan to make sure these animals and their habitat can survive. 

Cloning is something for the toolbox, but not a foundation upon which to build.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I may seem idealistic, but I&#8217;m also being practical.</p>
<p>I understand wanting to have this one in our toolbox, cloning can be a good option in some cases. It is worthwhile. But really, cloning an animal isn&#8217;t going to do much good if we don&#8217;t address the underlying reasons for why the animal went extinct in the first place. What good is cloning if those factors are not fixed? Animals and their habitat are intrinsically linked, you cannot have one function healthily without the other. If these problems with habitat and human influence aren&#8217;t rectified, cloning will be just be at best a temporary fix, the animals will very likely just go extinct again and what then? We clone again, and around and around we go. It&#8217;s like putting a band aid on a very serious wound, it stops the blood for now, but doesn&#8217;t do much to mend the reason why you are bleeding in the first place. </p>
<p>What good is having the animal resurrected if it has nowhere to go? You can clone animals all you want, but if things like habitat loss, pollution, and human interference aren&#8217;t fixed, the only thing these cloned animals are going to be good for is zoos, where we can see the kind of biodiversity that once inhabited our planet in the wild. It seems to me that cloning without any solid plans for conservation, habitat preservation or ensuring that the same thing doesn&#8217;t happen again is folly. I tend to think cloning should be a last resort, and even then only in conjunction with some plan to make sure these animals and their habitat can survive. </p>
<p>Cloning is something for the toolbox, but not a foundation upon which to build.</p>
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		<title>By: MattBille</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/ibex-clone/comment-page-1/#comment-51205</link>
		<dc:creator>MattBille</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 22:13:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/?p=10819#comment-51205</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Beast has a good point.  Essentially, we need every tool we can put in the conservation toolbox.  Some conservationists have expressed concern that the availability of cloning might make it seem less important to preserve habitat, but things have not advanced enough for us to find out whether anyone will actually make such an argument.  I can&#039;t see it being advanced very seriously.  If we can restore some animals we&#039;ve already lost, that seems worthwhile.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beast has a good point.  Essentially, we need every tool we can put in the conservation toolbox.  Some conservationists have expressed concern that the availability of cloning might make it seem less important to preserve habitat, but things have not advanced enough for us to find out whether anyone will actually make such an argument.  I can&#8217;t see it being advanced very seriously.  If we can restore some animals we&#8217;ve already lost, that seems worthwhile.</p>
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		<title>By: BeastInTheLake</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/ibex-clone/comment-page-1/#comment-51201</link>
		<dc:creator>BeastInTheLake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 16:46:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/?p=10819#comment-51201</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I feel a bit torn on this one. My idealistic side agrees with Mystery_Man - humans should act in time to prevent the extinction of species - but my inner cynic says they probably won&#039;t, so better have the other option handy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel a bit torn on this one. My idealistic side agrees with Mystery_Man &#8211; humans should act in time to prevent the extinction of species &#8211; but my inner cynic says they probably won&#8217;t, so better have the other option handy.</p>
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		<title>By: dogu4</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/ibex-clone/comment-page-1/#comment-51199</link>
		<dc:creator>dogu4</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 12:31:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/?p=10819#comment-51199</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Like Ceroill says; &quot;interesting&quot;, indeed. How is it that a population under close scrutiny can go from 30 to Zero in a couple of decades? I have to suspect that along with inbreeding (whose prominence as a perceived cause for decline is likely conflated with our instinctual taboo psychology regarding the subject) there are other human factors, like poaching or harrassment. It certainly makes on wish that instead of needing to clone the conservation community had taken greater steps to see the last 30 didn&#039;t die. In any event, there&#039;s probably an back story here, I suspect, sort of like the one that accompanied the efforts to capture and start a captive breeding program for the California Condor when its population dwindled down to the couple of dozen range...and of course prior to that they were still being shot at routinely by some trigger happy types who had yet to appreciate that every big soaring bird wasn&#039;t some villain preying on some rancher&#039;s innocent lambs and calves. 
These reports of biological conservation programs applying genetic engineering of a wide variety of approaches seem to be proliferating lately. Each one brings a new level of understanding and for the public an new opportunity to refamiliarize ourselves with what new techniques are emerging. Fascinating and thanks for bringing &#039;em to our attention. Keep us posted.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like Ceroill says; &#8220;interesting&#8221;, indeed. How is it that a population under close scrutiny can go from 30 to Zero in a couple of decades? I have to suspect that along with inbreeding (whose prominence as a perceived cause for decline is likely conflated with our instinctual taboo psychology regarding the subject) there are other human factors, like poaching or harrassment. It certainly makes on wish that instead of needing to clone the conservation community had taken greater steps to see the last 30 didn&#8217;t die. In any event, there&#8217;s probably an back story here, I suspect, sort of like the one that accompanied the efforts to capture and start a captive breeding program for the California Condor when its population dwindled down to the couple of dozen range&#8230;and of course prior to that they were still being shot at routinely by some trigger happy types who had yet to appreciate that every big soaring bird wasn&#8217;t some villain preying on some rancher&#8217;s innocent lambs and calves.<br />
These reports of biological conservation programs applying genetic engineering of a wide variety of approaches seem to be proliferating lately. Each one brings a new level of understanding and for the public an new opportunity to refamiliarize ourselves with what new techniques are emerging. Fascinating and thanks for bringing &#8216;em to our attention. Keep us posted.</p>
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		<title>By: Ceroill</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/ibex-clone/comment-page-1/#comment-51197</link>
		<dc:creator>Ceroill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 06:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/?p=10819#comment-51197</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting. (I seem to use that word a lot) I have seen suggestions of cloning Thylacines. I have also seen more recently mention of a study that suggests the Thylacines were (are?) strongly inbred, much like cheetas are, and that this contributed to their fading.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting. (I seem to use that word a lot) I have seen suggestions of cloning Thylacines. I have also seen more recently mention of a study that suggests the Thylacines were (are?) strongly inbred, much like cheetas are, and that this contributed to their fading.</p>
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