Comments on: Proto-Nazi Hoax: The “Ape” in Green Hell

By: traveler

traveler — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 19:50:35 +0000

OK, here it goes. I don’t post many comments on here, but this is one where I must. Loren might remember me discussing a sighting of my fathers. If this is a pic of a real creature or not, I don’t know, but I know this. There are large monkey\apes in those jungles. Larger than what science knows there to be. I was born and raised in those jungles. My father was a jungle explorer. He did see very large thick bodied monkey/apes. He saw them at a distance. His closest comparison to size was that of a chimp. They were dark colored, and moved very very fast through the trees. He said they were definitely bigger than any type of monkey he was familiar with, including the howlers, and the grey woolys, which got to be quite large. I grew up with many pet monkeys, including several spider monkeys, some capuchins, some bat monkeys, squirrel monkeys, and even bat monkeys that weren’t supposed to be in our area of the jungle. This picture just doesn’t seem to really be a common spider monkey. There’s something in the face that just doesn’t set right with me. Honestly, I can’t really describe it. Something in the jaw and face. I have seen many many dead monkeys, and even then it doesn’t seem right. Is this a large creature? I don’t think we can really know, but I am not comfortable with the whole common spider monkey thing.

By: things-in-the-woods

things-in-the-woods — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 09:53:15 +0000

Its a real photo. Of a real spider monkey.

By: mystery_man

mystery_man — Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:18:25 +0000

Yes, Loren, thank you for posting that. Indeed spider monkeys can have very small thumbs which is the most I can gather the pictured creature has. There is no evidence whatsoever that I can see that points to this being anything other than a spider monkey or at the very most another type of tree dwelling monkey.

By: mystery_man

mystery_man — Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:14:58 +0000

True, spider monkeys have either no thumbs, or small stumps for thumbs, but examining this photo, I see no thumbs on the creature and so I cannot see how the hands point to something other than a spider monkey. I do not see the “small thumbs” that were mentioned by Willy Ley. Lets not forget that spider monkeys can have stump like thumbs, although they are not opposable. Even if there are small thumbs present, the hands, feet, and limbs point towards a tree dwelling primate and not those of a bipedal ape. Therefore, the presence of thumbs would merely rule out a spider monkey, yet not the evidence that this is anything other than an arboreal primate. At the very most, this could be a new type of primate, but a clearly arboreal one. The morphology of the creature in the photo is not consistent with that of a land dwelling, bipedal ape.

By: Loren Coleman

Loren Coleman — Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:14:20 +0000

Regarding what is seen on the hands of this specimen:

The thumbs of its hands are extremely small - also a characteristic of the spider-monkeys. The genitals (which are not a penis but a clitoris, for it is indeed a female) are strikingly large. All female spider-monkeys have an over-developed clitoris.Bernard Heuvelmans, On the Track of Unknown Animals, 3rd rev. ed., 1995: page 369

By: MBFH

MBFH — Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:49:12 +0000

I’ve always been dubious of the photo showing anything other than a tree living ape since I was a youngster. It’s the feet and hands.

Is there any chance of a larger imagine as I’ve never been able to make out the thumbs that are described, that Dale refers to?

By: Loren Coleman

Loren Coleman — Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:03:51 +0000

Calling a statement "paranoid" is unnecessary, and is getting rather close to flaming and anyone continuing to do such things will be booted from here. Please refrain from such comments, and instead more fully explain yourself in points of fact.

The history of how this photo was allegedly taken, how it was stored away, and how Montandon "discovered" it and used it, engaging de Loys in his plot, has been overviewed closely here and more in depth in the articles on the matter (see references).

An unremarkable but strange photograph of a spider monkey was discovered, and then it was used incorrectly for Montandon's racist purposes. I would call that a hoax created by Montandon.

Why is this line of thinking of myself and Raynal so difficult for Drinnon to understand without getting into unjustified attacks on the theorists? Montandon's history is clear. His "American anthropoid" cannot be separated from his history, as if, because we are talking about cryptozoology, he gets a pass.

By: daledrinnon

daledrinnon — Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:46:10 +0000

The hands are the key to the identification.

Willy Ley, when discussing the photo mentions that it has “Small thumbs.” It does indeed have small thumbs. Spider Monkeys are Thumbless. The genus name. Ateles, refers to this.

The hands and feet are not like a spider monkey, in fact they compare favorably to a siamang’s. The strip of flesh between the nostrils is also not wider than a Siamang’s, but the nostrils are dialated. It is NOT necessarily Platyrhinnian.

The crux of the matter is this allegation that the photograph is a hoax based on the assumption that the hoax was motivated for racist purposes. That line of reasoning is fallacious and illogical. There are a couple of logical steps needed in between there to make the assertion true. Those logical steps are not proven and hence not there, and the syllogism does not exist. You simply cannot get from the photo to the assertion of a racist hoax on the basis of the presented facts, it is a paranoid statement.

By: mystery_man

mystery_man — Fri, 30 Mar 2007 02:54:04 +0000

Yes, Joppa, the hands too. The feet are just the first thing that jumps out at me here.

By: joppa

joppa — Fri, 30 Mar 2007 02:48:28 +0000

It’s not just the feet, look at the hands – spider monkey hands – designed for hanging from limbs, swinging on vines and living in trees – like a spider monkey.

Most ground dwelling apes or monkeys don’t have such pronounced “tree climbing” hands. Every part of this critter says “I’m a tree dweller”.