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	<title>Comments on: My Friends Are Artists &#038; Creationists</title>
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	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 08:23:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Bob K.</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/artists-creationists/#comment-10240</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob K.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Feb 2007 19:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/when-friends-are-artists-creationists/#comment-10240</guid>
		<description>Enough of this blather that anyone who doesnt believe in Darwinism just has air between their ears. I, for one, dont believe that a cow magically, over time, morphed into a blue whale; or that the ape skeleton, Lucy, is in any way shape or form, human; or, that the human brain, the human eye, or simply-human beings-with our stealth fighters, nuclear weapons, and endless creativity, magically morphed over magically long eons of time-from a bit of stone. Have fun calling me a fundie, flat earther, or whatever else comes to mind;in my opinion-and Karl Poppers-Darwinism is a metaphysical research program. Cheers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Enough of this blather that anyone who doesnt believe in Darwinism just has air between their ears. I, for one, dont believe that a cow magically, over time, morphed into a blue whale; or that the ape skeleton, Lucy, is in any way shape or form, human; or, that the human brain, the human eye, or simply-human beings-with our stealth fighters, nuclear weapons, and endless creativity, magically morphed over magically long eons of time-from a bit of stone. Have fun calling me a fundie, flat earther, or whatever else comes to mind;in my opinion-and Karl Poppers-Darwinism is a metaphysical research program. Cheers.</p>
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		<title>By: mystery_man</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/artists-creationists/#comment-10239</link>
		<dc:creator>mystery_man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Nov 2006 13:14:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/when-friends-are-artists-creationists/#comment-10239</guid>
		<description>Human experience and feelings are a tough one alright. I know scientists who are religious, so I don't think a belief in science rules out religion. It might seem from my posts that I am firmly against any idea of religion because my argument for evolution, so that could be read into my comment as well, I suppose. I am actually Buddhist and Charles Darwin himself was Christian.   I enjoy pondering all of the things above, about human thought and experience, and love. There is something ethereal and unique about the human experience although I know some biochemists might not agree. I like creating things, writing, drawing. Don't think my belief in the scientific process makes me a robot or something! I understand there are a lot of things that may never be explained away in this universe and there are other things that we just lack the ability to explain at this point with the tools we have.  I just don't think evolution is one of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Human experience and feelings are a tough one alright. I know scientists who are religious, so I don&#8217;t think a belief in science rules out religion. It might seem from my posts that I am firmly against any idea of religion because my argument for evolution, so that could be read into my comment as well, I suppose. I am actually Buddhist and Charles Darwin himself was Christian.   I enjoy pondering all of the things above, about human thought and experience, and love. There is something ethereal and unique about the human experience although I know some biochemists might not agree. I like creating things, writing, drawing. Don&#8217;t think my belief in the scientific process makes me a robot or something! I understand there are a lot of things that may never be explained away in this universe and there are other things that we just lack the ability to explain at this point with the tools we have.  I just don&#8217;t think evolution is one of them.</p>
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		<title>By: Pazuzu</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/artists-creationists/#comment-10238</link>
		<dc:creator>Pazuzu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Nov 2006 03:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/when-friends-are-artists-creationists/#comment-10238</guid>
		<description>I didn't argue very much in favor of creationism, but you seemed to read that in because I pointed out a lot of things that science hasn't been able to prove, and that to a certain extent it is faith-based. Logical and pretty consistent (is light a particle or a wave?) But can you prove that everything is provable scientifically? Can you really answer all of the why questions? Are we not supposed to ask the hard questions that science hasn't been able to answer? If we are really interested in understanding the world we live in, then it can help to really reassess what our fundamental beliefs are. Understanding the fundamental aspects of human experience is important to a lot of people, and science hasn't necessarily provided adequate answers.

Here's an interesting question. Does creation exist?

Have you ever created anything? Does anything exist? Are you a solipsist? All kinds of philosophical questions!? :) (Apply the above to the idea of having an idea.)

"I think, therefore I am." If I create, doesn't creation exist? Do you really think that science can explain human experience in terms of the fundamental principles of physics? Can human values be found within the structure of the atom?

If you think I am a Xian with a belief in biblical creation, then you probably don't understand my name.

(I actually have worked with some really neat dino microfossils and enjoy science, I just tend to dislike scientific hubris.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t argue very much in favor of creationism, but you seemed to read that in because I pointed out a lot of things that science hasn&#8217;t been able to prove, and that to a certain extent it is faith-based. Logical and pretty consistent (is light a particle or a wave?) But can you prove that everything is provable scientifically? Can you really answer all of the why questions? Are we not supposed to ask the hard questions that science hasn&#8217;t been able to answer? If we are really interested in understanding the world we live in, then it can help to really reassess what our fundamental beliefs are. Understanding the fundamental aspects of human experience is important to a lot of people, and science hasn&#8217;t necessarily provided adequate answers.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s an interesting question. Does creation exist?</p>
<p>Have you ever created anything? Does anything exist? Are you a solipsist? All kinds of philosophical questions!? <img src='http://www.cryptomundo.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> (Apply the above to the idea of having an idea.)</p>
<p>&#8220;I think, therefore I am.&#8221; If I create, doesn&#8217;t creation exist? Do you really think that science can explain human experience in terms of the fundamental principles of physics? Can human values be found within the structure of the atom?</p>
<p>If you think I am a Xian with a belief in biblical creation, then you probably don&#8217;t understand my name.</p>
<p>(I actually have worked with some really neat dino microfossils and enjoy science, I just tend to dislike scientific hubris.)</p>
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		<title>By: mystery_man</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/artists-creationists/#comment-10237</link>
		<dc:creator>mystery_man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Nov 2006 02:27:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/when-friends-are-artists-creationists/#comment-10237</guid>
		<description>Evidence for macro evolution? Fossils for one. Its hard to do this in a lab with higher life forms as it takes millions of years, so typically microorganisms are used so that many generations can be witnessed in a short time. So we study fossils. I would like to see the creationists prove all of the same as above with their own theories and methods as well. As I said, it is easy to point out all of the reasons that evolution can't work, but can you point out why creationism can any better? What about the alien colonist theorists, I'm sure they can provide you with all the reasons why their theory is valid. Why not teach that in school? Can you give me any kind of evidence that even compares to what we have discovered concerning evolution and I do not mean how you think creationism works, but valid evidence. I do not believe science should be so readily dismissed.  And who said anything about science being easy? It takes a lot of work to research and get to the bottom of how things work in a scientific way. The big bang? Well, that is something scientists are trying to figure out in a controlled, meaningful way and we might not have all the answers but at least it is being researched in a valid manner. And doesn't replicable research mean that it is provable? Inorganic material to organic material? Isn't saying that that is the result of an almighty deity making an assumption as well? Has any work been done to explain this on the part of creationists to prove why this must be the work of God?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Evidence for macro evolution? Fossils for one. Its hard to do this in a lab with higher life forms as it takes millions of years, so typically microorganisms are used so that many generations can be witnessed in a short time. So we study fossils. I would like to see the creationists prove all of the same as above with their own theories and methods as well. As I said, it is easy to point out all of the reasons that evolution can&#8217;t work, but can you point out why creationism can any better? What about the alien colonist theorists, I&#8217;m sure they can provide you with all the reasons why their theory is valid. Why not teach that in school? Can you give me any kind of evidence that even compares to what we have discovered concerning evolution and I do not mean how you think creationism works, but valid evidence. I do not believe science should be so readily dismissed.  And who said anything about science being easy? It takes a lot of work to research and get to the bottom of how things work in a scientific way. The big bang? Well, that is something scientists are trying to figure out in a controlled, meaningful way and we might not have all the answers but at least it is being researched in a valid manner. And doesn&#8217;t replicable research mean that it is provable? Inorganic material to organic material? Isn&#8217;t saying that that is the result of an almighty deity making an assumption as well? Has any work been done to explain this on the part of creationists to prove why this must be the work of God?</p>
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		<title>By: Pazuzu</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/artists-creationists/#comment-10236</link>
		<dc:creator>Pazuzu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Nov 2006 01:44:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/when-friends-are-artists-creationists/#comment-10236</guid>
		<description>"but scientists have to come up with a little thing called hard, replicable evidence and this is distinctly lacking in creationism."

Just out of curiosity, is there hard, replicable evidence for macro-evolution? As in laboratory controlled experiments in which new organ systems, appendages, or other biological systems have developed in ways that would be consistent with evolutionary theory, perhaps resulting in totally new species that "evolved" from pre-existing species? There is no question about experiments showing what would be considered micro-evolution (changes within a species resulting in new varieties), but being able to cite scientific proof for the evolution of complex biological systems based upon laboratory experiments would pretty much end the debate. Can you cite scientific literature in which carbon-based organic life has been created from inorganic chemicals? Since science is supposed to have all the answers, these should be pretty simple to provide.

I'd also like to point out the fact that much of science and mathematics are built upon unprovable assumptions. If you accept something as true that is unprovable, doesn't that imply faith?

My training was in math and physics, and it always seemed to me that the inability to apply reductionism is a major problem in science. For instance, can anyone using current scientific knowledge logically and scientifically explain human consciousness as a logical and necessary consequence of the big bang? Seriously, can you start with the big bang, and logically, using current scientific knowledge, explain all of physical existence and human experience?

Can you prove uniformitarianism as applied to the universe, or the axioms and postulates of mathematics?

If you can, then I will be very impressed and will need to revise my Weltanschuung. I guess this is kind of my challenge to the skeptics out there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;but scientists have to come up with a little thing called hard, replicable evidence and this is distinctly lacking in creationism.&#8221;</p>
<p>Just out of curiosity, is there hard, replicable evidence for macro-evolution? As in laboratory controlled experiments in which new organ systems, appendages, or other biological systems have developed in ways that would be consistent with evolutionary theory, perhaps resulting in totally new species that &#8220;evolved&#8221; from pre-existing species? There is no question about experiments showing what would be considered micro-evolution (changes within a species resulting in new varieties), but being able to cite scientific proof for the evolution of complex biological systems based upon laboratory experiments would pretty much end the debate. Can you cite scientific literature in which carbon-based organic life has been created from inorganic chemicals? Since science is supposed to have all the answers, these should be pretty simple to provide.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d also like to point out the fact that much of science and mathematics are built upon unprovable assumptions. If you accept something as true that is unprovable, doesn&#8217;t that imply faith?</p>
<p>My training was in math and physics, and it always seemed to me that the inability to apply reductionism is a major problem in science. For instance, can anyone using current scientific knowledge logically and scientifically explain human consciousness as a logical and necessary consequence of the big bang? Seriously, can you start with the big bang, and logically, using current scientific knowledge, explain all of physical existence and human experience?</p>
<p>Can you prove uniformitarianism as applied to the universe, or the axioms and postulates of mathematics?</p>
<p>If you can, then I will be very impressed and will need to revise my Weltanschuung. I guess this is kind of my challenge to the skeptics out there.</p>
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		<title>By: mystery_man</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/artists-creationists/#comment-10235</link>
		<dc:creator>mystery_man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 02:45:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/when-friends-are-artists-creationists/#comment-10235</guid>
		<description>The thing that strikes me about creationism is that it tries to replace a solid, scientifically verifiable fact, backed up by hard data, with a theory based on ancient stories and faith. A lot of the theories I've read from creationists latch onto percieved holes in evolution and use those to fit into their creationist view of the universe. Holes in the fossil record? It must be evidence of creationism, some would rationalize. If that is the case, why even have fossils to begin with? Are we to refute everything we have studied and learned about the natural world in favor of an unverified, faith based theory? It's easy to refute things with the ultimate card, "God works in mysterious ways", or it is that way because of God's will. You can take this convenient explanation and try to refute evolution, but scientists have to come up with a little thing called hard, replicable evidence and this is distinctly lacking in creationism. Finding holes in evolutionism is not evidence. There is a way to learn about the world we live in, and it is called science, and the overwhelming facts discovered by science points to evolution. It is not a conspiracy, or a pet theory, or an attack on creationism. It is a solid, verifiable, grounded basis for how life developed on this world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing that strikes me about creationism is that it tries to replace a solid, scientifically verifiable fact, backed up by hard data, with a theory based on ancient stories and faith. A lot of the theories I&#8217;ve read from creationists latch onto percieved holes in evolution and use those to fit into their creationist view of the universe. Holes in the fossil record? It must be evidence of creationism, some would rationalize. If that is the case, why even have fossils to begin with? Are we to refute everything we have studied and learned about the natural world in favor of an unverified, faith based theory? It&#8217;s easy to refute things with the ultimate card, &#8220;God works in mysterious ways&#8221;, or it is that way because of God&#8217;s will. You can take this convenient explanation and try to refute evolution, but scientists have to come up with a little thing called hard, replicable evidence and this is distinctly lacking in creationism. Finding holes in evolutionism is not evidence. There is a way to learn about the world we live in, and it is called science, and the overwhelming facts discovered by science points to evolution. It is not a conspiracy, or a pet theory, or an attack on creationism. It is a solid, verifiable, grounded basis for how life developed on this world.</p>
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		<title>By: Mnynames</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/artists-creationists/#comment-10234</link>
		<dc:creator>Mnynames</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 23:56:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/when-friends-are-artists-creationists/#comment-10234</guid>
		<description>I'm sorry, but I've yet to encounter a creationist that had any real understanding of evolution, nor for the most part even basic biology or geology.  Perhaps I've just not encountered the right ones.  However, I am both well-versed in evolutionary theory and have also taken the time to read several articles, books, and treatises on creationism.  I find it very telling that none of the authors I'm aware of has any "hard science" degrees, they mostly received their degrees in theology (No big surprise), history, or literature.

This shouldn't be particularly surprising.   Both evolution-"ism" and creationism in their modern forms began at the same time.  However, Evolutionary biologists have 150 years of solid, replicable studies and reams of supportive anatomical, morphological, and genetic data, whereas creationists must begin by refuting virtually every fact of biology and geology learned in that same time.  It is no wonder their understanding is so limited, for they've effectively thrown the baby out with the bathwater, then triumphantly declared that there's nothing crying, so there must never have been a baby in the first place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry, but I&#8217;ve yet to encounter a creationist that had any real understanding of evolution, nor for the most part even basic biology or geology.  Perhaps I&#8217;ve just not encountered the right ones.  However, I am both well-versed in evolutionary theory and have also taken the time to read several articles, books, and treatises on creationism.  I find it very telling that none of the authors I&#8217;m aware of has any &#8220;hard science&#8221; degrees, they mostly received their degrees in theology (No big surprise), history, or literature.</p>
<p>This shouldn&#8217;t be particularly surprising.   Both evolution-&#8221;ism&#8221; and creationism in their modern forms began at the same time.  However, Evolutionary biologists have 150 years of solid, replicable studies and reams of supportive anatomical, morphological, and genetic data, whereas creationists must begin by refuting virtually every fact of biology and geology learned in that same time.  It is no wonder their understanding is so limited, for they&#8217;ve effectively thrown the baby out with the bathwater, then triumphantly declared that there&#8217;s nothing crying, so there must never have been a baby in the first place.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Soliday</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/artists-creationists/#comment-10233</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Soliday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 14:36:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/when-friends-are-artists-creationists/#comment-10233</guid>
		<description>Concerning Rillo777's point, thanks; all hypothesis' are preconceived.  An idea is put into a testable question, so therefore some kind of preconcieved idea of where the question will lead, is made. Now then, can a testable hypothesis be developed to determine support for either view point?  How do historians determine validity of historical analysis?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Concerning Rillo777&#8217;s point, thanks; all hypothesis&#8217; are preconceived.  An idea is put into a testable question, so therefore some kind of preconcieved idea of where the question will lead, is made. Now then, can a testable hypothesis be developed to determine support for either view point?  How do historians determine validity of historical analysis?</p>
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		<title>By: Rillo777</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/artists-creationists/#comment-10232</link>
		<dc:creator>Rillo777</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 02:31:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/when-friends-are-artists-creationists/#comment-10232</guid>
		<description>I am going to have to point out something Ray in post #5 mentioned, and that is "not when a religious perspective gives a bias to support a preconceived hypothesis". From a creationist perspective, evolution theory is being taught as fact in our schools and most, if not all, creationists feel that there is an overwhelming bias for evolution even to the point of making the data fit the theory even to the point of ignoring data that questions the theory.

Please understand, I am not arguing here but many seem to think that creationists are a bunch of religious nuts who close their ears to anything that doesn't fit their faith. And that is simply not true. Many are highly educated research scientists who have seriously considered evolution and studied its evidence and found it to be lacking in feasible explanations for why things exist as they do. They are often censured in the universities and scientific publications even though their research is as sound as the scientist who advocates evolution.

This is what distresses creationists: that they are considered unscientific simply because they have reached a different conclusion than evolutionists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am going to have to point out something Ray in post #5 mentioned, and that is &#8220;not when a religious perspective gives a bias to support a preconceived hypothesis&#8221;. From a creationist perspective, evolution theory is being taught as fact in our schools and most, if not all, creationists feel that there is an overwhelming bias for evolution even to the point of making the data fit the theory even to the point of ignoring data that questions the theory.</p>
<p>Please understand, I am not arguing here but many seem to think that creationists are a bunch of religious nuts who close their ears to anything that doesn&#8217;t fit their faith. And that is simply not true. Many are highly educated research scientists who have seriously considered evolution and studied its evidence and found it to be lacking in feasible explanations for why things exist as they do. They are often censured in the universities and scientific publications even though their research is as sound as the scientist who advocates evolution.</p>
<p>This is what distresses creationists: that they are considered unscientific simply because they have reached a different conclusion than evolutionists.</p>
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		<title>By: ilexoak</title>
		<link>http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/artists-creationists/#comment-10231</link>
		<dc:creator>ilexoak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Nov 2006 21:13:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/when-friends-are-artists-creationists/#comment-10231</guid>
		<description>I think the way so many take such strong offense to "creationists", like myself, may reveal something about their own issues.

Sounds like "shunning" to me. Wasn't that a major criticism of the Puritans?

Wayne</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the way so many take such strong offense to &#8220;creationists&#8221;, like myself, may reveal something about their own issues.</p>
<p>Sounds like &#8220;shunning&#8221; to me. Wasn&#8217;t that a major criticism of the Puritans?</p>
<p>Wayne</p>
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