Good thoughts, good reasoning…

DWA thanks for quoting me, I stand by it.

As for Science it is a valuable tool for observation, and gathering data to test ideas and hypothesis (don’t even ask for the plural). Science is also supposed to keep an OPEN MIND. Doesn’t mean you have to believe everything lock, stock, and you know what, but it means you don’t dismiss things because it’s not fashionable thinking or lucrative thinking.

Science as a tool to help learn more about the world, I have NO PROBLEM with…I use it and work with it. Science as a religion where it is used by fanatics to try to shape the beliefs of others by deciding what is valid and what is not based on a VERY thin line of criteria used to control ideas, I have a serious problem with. Fundamentalist thinking in any field is out of balance.

The orang pendek is being taken seriously (National Geographic, which has pooh-poohed the sas, has put seed money into a photo-trap effort for the OP) because two Western scientists with excellent professional credentials are adamant that they have seen it.

Let’s hope somebody with some big-time zoo cred soils his knickers in the American backcountry this year.

And I’d have to agree with Ben that this ain’t perfect, and with you that the “sound bite” atmosphere of a live conference ain’t perfect neither. In fact, nothing is. You can prepare and polish your posts here; the most prepared and polished script can gang agley live. But I believe that the likelihood of the existence of unknown hairy hominoids asymptotically approaches 100% in good company with ample sudsy beverages on hand.

Dunno. Taking it off this board somehow somewhere does seem to have appeal.

Tell your higher ups to accept your thesis through an unconventional personal access point. Follow yer passion. Organize Sas Scream ‘07.

Easy for ME to say. But I’d count myself a Yea.

Infuriating as I do sometimes find you, I am glad you are here, and I hope you keep on contributing.

p.s.- I’m not sure a live discussion would actually be better. From my experience of live debates (even at academic conferences) I tend to find them a very bad place for having serious, detailed, in depth discussions, especially where the participants are emotionally wound up (as- lets be honest- they would be on this topic). The ‘victory’ almost always goes to the best speaker, or even the one with the loudest voice- not necessarily the best argument. It is much more effective, I think, to have the space and time to set out ones arguments in writing.

I think it would be great if someone could put together a journal with input from ‘both sides’. Skeptical mags are great, and so are crypto mags, but i think it might be a whole lot more constructive if we could engage directly. Of course, this is what happens here on cryptomundo to some extent, but of course its not always conducive to reasoned debate (although I happen to think we are all pretty good- best I’ve seen on the net anyway), and can be a bit of a free for all (thats not a bad thing- its just a different way of engaging- probably more fun, but not necessarily always the most constructive for moving things forward). It would be great to be able to have extended dialogues between say Loren and Ben (or even DWA and Ben), each putting their argument on something, and then taking it in turns to address in proper detail the points the other makes, and to provide detailed references for everything.

Any takers? If i wasn’t writing up my thesis, i might just consider trying to organise something myself.

What I don’t get is why he chooses to do so in this rather ‘peripheral’ realm. Why doesn’t he tackle peoples irrationality in more significant realms? If he really cares about tackling illogic and bad science, why doesn’t he direct his energies into something where such bad science has a significant detrimental effect?

In the long tradition of the thing seen as least important turning out to be most important….

Might be talking too soon here, but with the sas we’re talking what we call charismatic megafauna. As in, people care about them and identify with them and think they’re warm and cuddly. (OK, the giant panda is warm and cuddly. At least it looks that way on its best days. The sas, not so much.)

People don’t rush to the defense of squid or insects. Birds in New Guinea or monkeys in Africa don’t touch people here very much. But the discovery of a major – how could one get more major than World’s Biggest Primate? – new species right here in our proverbial backyards could do a lot of unexpected, cool things. Like spark debate over a number of less-than-salutary developments in land usage patterns and planning over here – which tend to spark and spur similar developments everywhere else in the world. (Every day, in every way, the world gets more like America.)

I think that the sas is the most likely cryptid to be uncovered. When and if it is, all the other hairy hominoids suddenly become really plausible. And people all over the world are suddenly starting to look at how much habitat REALLY needs to be conserved, and how it can happen. These hominoids are umbrella species. Protect them and protect everything that lives with them.

As someone who thinks there is only one ecological issue – human population and what we do with it – the discovery of the sas could have effects that dwarf the sunniest possible scenarios for any of the “non-peripheral” areas you mentioned. Not much sense putting all your eggs in medicine when, at the rate we’re biggering, we’ll be so cheek by jowl, so soon, that medicine will be the least of our worries. Maybe what we need is a scientific discovery that makes us re-consider biggering before a global catastrophe does that for us.

And TV and the internet were supposed to save the world too. So maybe not.

But this still deserves the best efforts of those working on it. It probably deserves more effort than the search for the ivory-billed woodpecker, to name just one. (Save the sas and you save the woodpecker.) We’ve already found enough stuff in places like Borneo, New Guinea and Cambodia that if they aren’t protected completely, right now, then no one cares and they are doomed anyway. The case has been made in those places.

We need to make another case, somewhere else, that will throw a different light on all conservation efforts everywhere.

And a good acquaintance with the data on the sasquatch points us, I think, to as good a place as any to start.

This forum, as democratic as it is, is of limited use. What is really needed is a full-on, live discussion session at a Bigfoot conference. Somewhere where these topics can be rationally debated and discussed and we can really give each other’s arguments a fair hearing.

In fact, that is exactly what I do. Trying to understand the evidence and arguments for Bigfoot is only a small part of my attempt to increase science literacy. I think skepticism should be imposed across the board, on all topics, from claims of WMDs to sex offender laws to alternative medicine. I have written and investigated dozens of topics outside of cryptozoology, but this is what I’m best known for around here.

In fact, my 2003 book Media Mythmakers: How Journalists, Activists, and Advertisers Mislead Us is full of examples of skepticism applied to more significant and urgent social and scientific issues.